Wednesday, February 20 2013, 10:34AM
“Not forgetting the council 'Pilgrims' i.e. taxpayer funded union workers.”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 10:41AM
“These figures don't include all the other pen-pushers living out of the public purse like at the Universities, NHS etc.Many of these high-earners don't even live in Leicester and don't pay council tax! We live to pay their wages.Thousands of Leicester people earn around £6.30 per hour (I'm one of them) and still have to pay full Council Tax. Even the lowest paid council workers will get the £7.45 'living wage'.LCC pay 16% above market value for wages according to payscale.com and look at all the benefits they get too:http://tinyurl.com/atdrcvy”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 11:53AM
“Efficiency and value for (our) money is an alien concept to the Public Sector as a whole but local councils are experts at bleeding us dry. Self serving leeches abound in local administration which exists only to feed and enrich itself at the expense of others.”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 11:58AM
“Can we expect pete,porky,waddle and fellow pocket stuffers to comment on this ?Have a guess !Just think of the thousand of staff sacked or on no wage rises who really are pleased that these **** are laughing .”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 1:26PM
“I think this new Freedomain Radio documentary teaser that came out today is relevant to these issues:http://tinyurl.com/acfkb6hSpread it around if you care about the direction humanity is heading.”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 1:55PM
“NickDiPerna1,quick question - What salary exactly is acceptable for these "Pen Pushers"?Do you not think they might be part of the same Unions that represent ordinary workers?Do you not think they might struggle to retain these employees on lower salaries?Do you not think that if they reduced the Salaries of these employees, that the entirewage structure top down would need to be scaled back so you don't end up with thehierarchy earning less than the shop floor.if you reduce the wages at the top, their subordinates pay would also be reduced, as would the next level down, ultimately you would be pushing the bottom end of the work force (where the most employees are), below the living wage level you aspire to.A hierarchical employment system exists to provide advancement and promotion opportunities within the same organisation. This gives workers at the bottom the chance to progress within the organisation, it facilitates natural supersession when those at the top (usually the eldest), retire. It encourages retention, it encourages loyalty, and it promotes familiarity of business practices.Whilst the Boss may be on a lot, if you cut his wages, and everyone below him,how much would the cleaners and bin men at the bottom be on? Would they do their jobs for that money? Would the Unions wear it? And ultimately what would that do to the entire system? Motivation and sense of worth would be low, workers would jump ship when able, pension contributions and tax contributions would drop, and dependence on the state from these workers would be inevitable in some cases.But you have that covered don't you.Your own personal little war against the state tells you that everyone is on the take, and you are personally funding it.. Wherever you live you pay council tax in this country.A councillor who is non domicile cannot represent an area.You often quote thesis, studies, models, but just once - why not have a look at what actually happens.. If you want to research something that isn't based on theory.. that is true in every single walk of life - try this..CAUSE AND EFFECT.. you might have heard of it.Every action has a consequence.. Try considering what it is these highly paid people do, or how many years they've worked, and how inflation in salaries at the bottom of the ladder have necessitated inflation of salaries higher up the ladder.. After all who wants to get promoted if you earn less than your current level? But who wants to work at the bottom if the pay is crummy and promotion isn't that appealing either?”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 3:45PM
“NickDiPerna1 - Where do you get your 16% above market rate twaddle from? Market increments are paid to certain professional staff just to retain them, and even that puts some 9K UNDER private sector rates. Staff are leaving and cant be replaced as the pay is so low, morale is so low and work demands and pressures are so high, pat rises haven't happened for 4 years and wont for at least another 2, and job security is referred to in terms of months!Easy life? Go and try it!!!!”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 4:00PM
“WHY NO COMMENTS? RED OR GREEN .”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 5:00PM
“@ chappyAll I'm really saying is: what happened to the humble little bureaucrat taking the bus to the council office every morning from suburbia wearing a Burton suit? Those people who exchanged financial rewards for job security.The State is supposedly here to improve our quality of life and stop exploitation, but all we have is a broken nation full of dysfunctional people. The cap between rich and poor is even greater now. Education standards are abysmal. Hospitals are reaching a crisis point. Chucking money at these institutions hasn't done any good at all. Time for a cultural rethink. @Praetorian66 "morale is so low and work demands and pressures are so high, pay rises haven't happened for 4 years and wont for at least another 2, and job security is referred to in terms of months!"Welcome to the real world! Try and do all that for £6.20 per hour – permanent nights, no sick pay.”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 5:48PM
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 6:23PM
“Just glance around at the leaders of the pack. NHS turmoil incompetence greed. Banks sheer corruption and greed. BBC sheer incompetence greed labour followers. Leicester Council, Sheppard Soulsby leading us sheep to the slaughter. Government of all colours greedy grabbing incompetent leaches, just look at the state of the NHS Banks BBC Councils Education and Governments. Look at the state of this country. Not the sharpest knife in the box but just of late high wages in many many cases = incompetence. Idea. all on or above £50K in the council print their job descriptions so tax payers can see just what they do. That is besides meetings they are in when you ask to speak to them.”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 6:51PM
“Can someone explain why senior public sector managers are "pen pushers" and senior private sector managers are "high flyers"?”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 7:18PM
“"All I'm really saying is: what happened to the humble little bureaucrat taking the bus to the council office every morning from suburbia wearing a Burton suit?"Do you have a degree in being condescending, because you excel at it.Why on earth shouldn't the public sector attract the best talent, from the very same pool as those who would choose to work for Proctor and Gamble or Price, Waterhouse, Cooper for example? Why do people like you see the public sector as a place of employment for those who always came second? It isn't a place to go and work if you can't work anywhere else; far from it. Most private sector managers who move sidways into the public sector simply can't hack it and leave within a year.I've worked for or with nearly 200 councils at every tier of local government and have seen it with my own eyes, not that that is worth anything in this debate, but at least I know I'm right!”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 7:19PM
“Can someone explain why if the pen pushers are so good, they choose not to become high flyers?Perhaps because they are not very good and are actually being paid more than their skills would command in the real world.”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 8:08PM
“In Comment:My own view,is that the national media,by focusing on benefits,invites the opposite view,as illustrated by the article.As a compromise,hopefully the clear cases of discrimination with references to unemployed persons,will be addressed by the council.albeit on high salaries.Hope that helps.”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 8:42PM
“My where do you get your ideas from.When I worked in the private sector I did indeed earn £50,000 a year. On top I had a company car and paid only 3% in pension contributions.I now work in the public sector doing a similar job. I earn less than half what I earned in the private sector, my salary has been frozen for 3 years so no pay rises, I have to provide my own car and pay 6% of my salary in pension contributions.Believe me, all those working at the council are working hard to earn their money and have the constant threat of redundancy hanging over them.Contributions like this are just nonsense posted by activists, right or left to foment discontent.”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 9:46PM
“sack the lot when you go to the council they only talking to each other”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 10:04PM
“So sansue, you've worked for councils have you.I guessed you did. Makes sense you was quick to condemn us A50 residents last week who are calling for safety along this rd, but failed to condemn the real offenders, The county council, for putting ours/other rd users safety at risk by their dangerous, selfish parking. I don't know what area you worked for in the council, but for someone to tell us to stop in the middle of 50/60mph traffic and back in to our driveways, is like backing up the A46. IS that something you would do in san e sue? You lady, have no sense!!!. Your brain is typical a council one!!”
Wednesday, February 20 2013, 11:13PM
“@ llamalambAnyone can attempt to fool the public by putting a positive spin on these findings, but in this situation, the evidence speaks for itself.Trying to gloss over the report is like flogging a dead donkey :-).”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 1:04AM
“Public Sector 50k Pen pushers aren't very good at their Job? really?Remind me to tell all the Submarine Engineers, Fast Jet Pilots, Helicopter Pilots, who are constantly being head hunted by Commercial businesses, but still choose to risk their lives working in the public sector.. I forgot entirely that there are better more deserving Fighter Pilots, Nuclear Submarine Engineers and Combat Helicopter pilots working for private sector for less money...As for those high up in the Public Sector, some of them have already worked there for 40 years - and have shown loyalty and earned their pay. Inflation necessitates wage increases on the shop floor, and in a promotional structure wages increase the longer you serve and the higher up you get. If you recruit directly at the top level you have to compete with the private sector, and that is why wages are higher at the top. In the Burton Suit days you speak of, we had Electric Strikes, the 3 day week.. go back a bit further and we had Rationing. Inflation isn't controlled by the public sector.. but it does affect the cost of materials, and budgets.. Things like Grit on the Roads costs nearly 10 times what it did in the 80's, if the councils stopped buying it or using it, there would be outrage.. the weather dictates when it will be needed, not the grey men in burton suits.. Just the same as careless dog owners, fly tippers, chewing gum spitters, litter droppers, vandals, push up the cost of keeping the county clean.It is just so easy to fixate on your own ideals, without ever seeing the bigger picture.I think if the entire Public Sector had a 1 day strike, there would be a national outrage.But at least that way - you could get an idea of exactly what jobs get done by them.”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 1:23AM
“@chappyThe military is a separate issue. Unless we are talking about the MoD spending billions on consultants, Whitehall credit cards and very expensive office furniture, whist soldiers go to war unequipped.”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 8:37AM
“Sansue'I've worked for or with nearly 200 councils at every tier of local government'Let me guess as a 'Consultant'? Equality & Diversity maybe? 'Walking to Work Initiatives'? 'Gay & Lesbian Outreach Programmes'?Did you charge by the hour - £200/£400? or maybe a day-rate of £1000+?”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 8:38AM
“"It is just so easy to fixate on your own ideals, without ever seeing the bigger picture"Indeed Chappy. How many of us on here have, politely (and at great length), tried to help Nick understand the issues at play in the issues he is fixated on? I truly do get the sense, Nick, that you don't even take in what we are saying, because if you did and truly thought about the fallacies you hold dear, then there would be signs of movement at least. I do actually wonder why I bother helping at times.”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 8:40AM
“"Let me guess as a 'Consultant'? Equality & Diversity maybe? 'Walking to Work Initiatives'? 'Gay & Lesbian Outreach Programmes'?"Nope; legal advisor, planner, democratic manager, etc. Why do you ask?”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 9:21AM
“At the end of the day if these people are so good in council /government, why is this City and country in such a mess????”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 10:28AM
“"At the end of the day if these people are so good in council /government, why is this City and country in such a mess????"Do you mean a financial mess? If so then the blame lays clearly at the feet of bankers, i.e. the private sector!”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 11:49AM
“@sansue "the blame lays clearly at the feet of bankers,i.e. the private sector!"And you say I'm fixated on issues...?This may sound a bit old-fashioned, but if you really draw an income from public money (snout in the trough), wouldn't it be more professional to take an impartial standpoint?”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 12:29PM
“@demoThe Marxist analyses of class in relation to economics is no longer a valid observation. The new ruling class draw income and status from and an enlarged and activistic State. They have traded 'wealth' for 'control'. The religion or groupthink that binds them together is the New Universal Faith of globalism, feminism, gay-rights, human-rights, environmentalism and multiculturalism, etc. The financial sector is demonised and used as a smokescreen. But they are still happy to trade favours with corporations.Amongst their ranks are politicians, educators, lawyers, state unions, media people and related business interests etc. A common trait among them is being above and beyond accountability. They are often referred to as the "liberal elite", but "Totalitarian Humanist" is probably a better definition.”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 5:02PM
“Out of curiosity Nick, what would your solution to all this be?? I'm assuming it would need to be a top down change of organisation, something a lot of people are against as part of the changes to the NHS.... How would you manage the changes you feel are needed to fix our broken political, social and economic system??”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 5:33PM
“"but if you really draw an income from public money"I don't; I run an SME. Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. Remember, they make an............!”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 5:35PM
“"And you say I'm fixated on issues...?"Hmmm, funny that, I'm one of the few from the left that rarely (if ever) mention the banks; perhaps you are confusing me with someone else? Doubt you'll be able to find another recent time I've mentioned the banks in fact.”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 5:36PM
“Nick, excuse me if I'm wrong, but you sound like a man who spends a great deal of time with his nose in books and very little actually dealing with real life issues?”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 7:50PM
“@bikerdanLots has already been written about this (see Tea Party, UKIP, Libertarians, Anarcho-capitalists, Lib Dem Orange Bookers etc.), but change may have to come from the individual or a general cultural rethink. Rolling back the state would be a temporary measure. People could have the choice to opt out of paying National Insurance and make their own private medical arrangements etc. Tax breaks to fund private education/home schooling etc. Looking for non-State solutions for housing, welfare and environmental problems etc. Sell off the BBC etc.Or just keep drowning in debt, printing money and watching society fall apart.”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 8:07PM
“@sansueI don't read many books. I get my knowledge from having done low-paid manual work from the age of 16 and dealing with ordinary people. There are too many overeducated snobs living in a bubble today, making decisions that effect the lives of ordinary people they've never met.But I think you are taking this shelf-stacker a bit too seriously :-).”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 8:32PM
“Ok Nick, here is a challenge,
Rather than referring to a thesis - or a model - or a philosophy which you have read in a book or on Wikipedia.. let's see you explain what fundamental changes you would make to society as a whole..
I will word this like an assignment,
Show in brief - which fundamentals fail - in laymans terms, what you would do to correct the issue, the benefits and dis-benefits to whom and the likely result of change.
Or you could do it as a project - and show how you would propose to implement and manage the change, what products will need to be created, what funding would need to be generated, where would the funding be drawn from, how would the success of the project be quantified, at what point during the project or term would you expect to realise benefits, what is the bail out strategy, where are the natural stage breaks, is any after care required, and who will provide it and will it be included in the project plan, and budget?
You think the public sector is an unjustifiable luxury, so with the level of corruption we have in the financial sector, the huge influence of foreign companies dictating our fiscal position at a domestic level, do you honestly think it would be better to trust the private sector to tax themselves, and pay another private company to administrate the services which the public sector already provides. Private Security rather than Policing for instance? Private health bill, where everyone has to have insurance, abolish state pensions, (you wouldn't need to pay anyone to calculate and retrieve NI contributions so you'd save billions)
What exactly do you suggest.. like I said without quoting or referring to someone else's theories or published work - what do you think.. I fully expect you to take into account every single tributary, (supply, personnel, resources, outsourced services, source of funding, expenditure, where overspend can be managed inter departmentally, unions, natural wastage, unforeseen circumstances - civil actions)
I believe that an efficient well run State, can provide, maintain and support (through infrastructure, education and public charter), a stable platform for the commercial private sector to thrive. What is hampering the current administration are the shackles imposed by an affiliation to a Free Trade Organisation - which banned the export of British Meat for an infection caused by unregulated livestock being brought into our country, yet fails to take action against all nations who trade in processed meat which doesn't meet EU Guidelines, and whose origins cannot be verified. Who knows what drugs the horses chopped up in some processed meat have had.. and what effect it could have in years to come.. after all we thought it was beef we were paying for..
The corruption in the Private Sector, High profile mismanagement in the Public Sector, the squeeze on Services putting pressure on at such a level that people don't know whether targets or objectives are more important. The Current incumbents are having to make cuts to pay off the overdraft of the previous incumbents, never mind the interest, or the extra Charity donations they committed us to the day before they relinquished power.
We are all in this together - no matter who caused it, if we don't get off our backsides and stop moaning, and saying I am not going to get out of bed for that small amount of money, whilst running up the credit cards on things we don't need to feel good instead of paying our way, and allowing our youths to behave like it's one big party, then we might as well hand control to whoever controls the gas and oil and be done with it.”
Thursday, February 21 2013, 9:17PM
All these things you write about have been explained in great detail by the world's great thinkers. I could sit for an hour and answer all your questions in my own way, but I don't get paid to solve the world's problems. This is more like attrition than a debate.
You believe in authority for your own reasons and I have reasons not to. Simple. In a voluntary society you can still have bosses and Popes to look up to and Bill Gates/George Lucas types to be inspired by without the use of force of law. Natural leaders. Water should be allowed to reach its own level without state interference. State education, state dependency, PC, rules and regulations are designed to keep the underclass 'below stairs' so an hereditary class can remain in control.”
Friday, February 22 2013, 1:28AM
“@ sansue "How many of us on here have, politely (and at great length), tried to help Nick understand the issues at play in the issues he is fixated on?"
Uhh? So I should just be a good little tax slave and leave the big decisions to my betters who live off my wages? How charming.”
Friday, February 22 2013, 10:08AM
“Not the sharpest knife in the box BUT. All these council staff on £50k or over. When I worked if I needed to ask someone how to do my job I would soon have been out of a job. If these highly paid staff cannot do their jobs without having to employ consultants to tell them what to do,why as the Council employed them in the first case and why keep employing them. The council is a joke. Example; Fit new windows. Who in their right mind would fit plastic frames without lintel support? Dozen of houses are showing cracks as the weight crushes these frames. Another case of incompetence or Job creation”
Friday, February 22 2013, 10:12AM
When 50% of GDP is spent by the state, it becomes clear that a large part of this is being captured by a public-sector elite. A public-servant in a dead-end northern town earning more than £130,000 a year, plus expenses and pension contributions (putting them in the same earnings bracket as the prime minister) would be a salary that very few in the private sector could hope to command in that region. While this is not legally classed as theft, paying a bureaucrat for doing a job that could be done just as well by an operative earning a quarter of that amount, is morally, in my view, no different to stealing public funds. It is also questionable whether such posts need to exist at all. Disparity in earning power in the private sector does not embezzle our taxes to the same degree.
"Local government pension contributions account for one-quarter of monies received as council tax. Shockingly, people who have no other pension provision—other than reliance on the state retirement pension (of around £5,000 a year)—are being forced to pay council tax so that council workers do not have to rely on the state retirement pension themselves, and do not have to take out their own self-invested personal pensions either." - DJ Webb
It seems difficult to deny that we have a grossly unfair system run by the same bureaucrats who claim they need to be employed in order to combat the unfair economic outcomes produced by the free market!”
“nick di perna, who says the worlds great thinkers are great,
only your god and yourself can judge your thoughts, your peers judge you by your actions.
How many of the world's great thinkers lived in Britain in 2012? How many of them ran in the last election, or compiled a manifesto? How many people like you are criticising everything in a modern, diplomatic, multi-ethnic society in Global and socio-economic trade alliances with other nations, partially governed by an external unitary organisation in order to maintain trade links whilst subsidising the less well managed.
But apart from get on your soap box and quote other people's ideas what have you actually said? What are NickDiPerna1 UK Circa 2012's thoughts?
We are a voluntary Society - Our Judicial System consists of Judges who have progressed through all levels of Law, and Jurers who are impartially selected regardless of status, from our peers.
We are Policed by consent..
State education if not provided wall fall back to only those who can afford education, then you would really find out what an underclass is. The middle class is in it's infancy, it emerged at the Turn of the Century, it does not feed of the scraps from the tables of the Idle Rich, and nor does it exploit the poor in the way that the rich did pre 1900.
The emerging middle classes made the correlation between education, work, trust, motivation, and success, but ultimately they feared failure and were less likely to take a gamble. They also promoted the advancement method whereby long standing loyalty and work should be rewarded with increased means or progression.
The former Aristocracy - Simply believed that the best way to improve your fortunes was to produce an heir and marry into wealth, whilst keeping your work force subservient and dependent. They believed in showing off their wealth to such a degree that they failed to maintain it, hence why so many of their trinkets and houses are now in the hands of Charities like the National Trust, or foreign ownership.
And the Poor - for the first time in history had rights - they could influence the vote, they could earn a wage, they had provision of a state funded pension. They have the chance to improve their status through free education..
And you see these as tools to sustain a division? ALMOST EVERY middle class family in this country came from humble beginnings... Some of the Mega Rich also came from Humble beginnings. Could they have done this without Education, the Rule of Law to protect their assets.
And just for your info NickDiPerna.. I came from modest beginnings, I wouldn't classify myself as rich, but I have worked my backside off to get where I am (In the Forces), I am married to a Civil servant - we now find ourselves struggling, and we see others in our situation being the victims of crime - so the protection of Law is something I gladly pay my tax for. It protects what I personally have worked for.
As for being a wage slave - if you feel you aren't being valued by your private sector employer, tell them to pay you more. You are paid from their pot, you pay into the communal pot, and you elect those who spend it, whilst paying interest on a debt someone else racked up.
By virtue of the fact that you claim earlier to be in a certain pay bracket, that means you have probably paid less tax (by a substantial amount) than already have. But at the table of government we have equal representation.. I don't despise you for it. But as you claim to be so well read, it would appear you have equipped yourself with the tools to achieve more, but somehow have failed to do so.
Elections give you the right to decide who makes the big decisions.We don't have the time or money to hold a referendum on every single decision which affects this nation.
So again - tell us your solutions and how you would rally support, but discuss the consequences - because others will most certainly point them out. Are you afraid of being exposed?”
Friday, February 22 2013, 10:48AM
To be honest I don't know what you are banging on about half the time. The point is..., you don't really have a point.
You believe in force, taxation, war, and authority to get results – not negotiation. Then you try to justify it.
This says a lot about your character. People also used to claim that civilisation would collapse without slavery, how wrong they were.”
Friday, February 22 2013, 10:49AM
“Put your theories into practice..
empahisis on the word "YOUR"”
Friday, February 22 2013, 10:50AM
“Give us the Opinions of Nick Di Perna - Circa 2012. All of the worlds great thinkers didn't or don't live in the UK Circa 2012 as far as I know. I can give you a "Foolproof" recipe for bread, but I guarantee if I gave the same recipe to 100 people, not many would produce a perfect loaf..why? Variables. In your co-operative system - Law wouldn't have to be maintained.. but what if someone unscrupulous decided to take advantage? How strong a position would they be in afterwards?
We are policed by Consent - meaning we agree to be policed,
We are a democracy-we elect our leaders based on them running for election based on a manifesto. They know their decisions and actions will affect their chances of re-election.
Our law consists of Experienced Judges who have progressed through the legal system or from respected and trusted positions In society, who require to have sat a bar exam. It also consists of a Jury, impartially and randomly selected from our peers without discrimination and regardless of class or status. Our Parliamentary model is not ideal I admit - the House of Lords was retained to appease the failings of the former ruling classes who squandered their fortunes, whilst the emergence of a middle class exploited the virtues of hard work, prudence, respect and reward. The poor were then given a chance to progress, where before they'd been kept in their place by their masters.
We have never gone back to those days. Give me and others the opportunity to pass judgement on your Solutions Nick Di Perna. The worlds great thinkers - are not necessarily the worlds great practitioners are they? Water should be allowed to achieve it's own level? really,
The earth is a turbulent force contained in a fragile shell, protected by a thin veil of atmosphere, within that atmosphere water never finds it's own level, it is always being affected by outside forces. In water impurities are suspended or float to the top, whilst the most valuable elements usually sink to the bottom, along with the sediment.
The councils like any other business employ consultants because it's cheaper than using or employing their own staff to conduct research, and the consultants will more than likely have access to a greater volume of similar studies from which to assist the current project.
Fitting windows without lintels, That is a failing of the company which fitted them, they will have been contractors, if a failing exists whereby a contractor fails to meet building regulations then it is the responsibility of the client to pursue the contractor to make good any work, if the contractor fails to make good any work then it can be pursued by court action. I don't know of any councils who own their own builders merchants or window fitting companies, and the department of building regulations should be called in if sufficient doubt exists over a proposed job. Whilst the owner of the property may be the council, the tenant is obliged to point out any deviation from safe practice or unsatisfactory work. As for asking advice, I come from a culture on Nuclear submarines where there is no such thing as a stupid question. I would sooner someone asked me if they were unsure, rather than creating a problem because of pride or fear. Only an idiot believes they know everything.
Very few in the private sector could hope to earn 130,000 per year?Really.Average premiership player earnings 22k per week -Lowest recorded wage 4000 per week.players registered in the premiership - 641. Average wage in Championship 4000 per week. Average wage in League one 2500 per week Average wage in League two 741 per week. (league two has the most youngsters) This is just one sector of employment.Forgetting pop stars, TV Stars, Film Stars, Company Directors, Bankers, Other Sports Stars,agents, bookmakers. Like I said Nick..Tell us your solution, not someone you have read. But at least touch on the negative effects or possibilities for failure.”
Friday, February 22 2013, 11:49AM
“@chappy "Put your theories into practice"I already do. I don't have a TV so I don't buy a licence and feed the state propaganda machine. I don't drink or smoke therefore don't pay crippling duty. I own property so I don't rely on state housing. I have downsized so I don't pay too much VAT on bills. I try to help people in my community which undermines the role of the council. I am going to do voluntary work to show that volunteers can do stuff better than state bureaucrats. I am also looking to work part-time thus paying less tax. Starve the system... You have to lead by example. This is just one way to do it.”
Friday, February 22 2013, 4:36PM
“Well said Nick, I am enjoying your posts and comments. I am thinking the same way as you do. I would vote for you, very honest and open.”
Friday, February 22 2013, 6:51PM
“Chappy we must live on different planets. I am talking about council fitting windows; yes you point it out and see what they say or do. I had to fetch a straight edge to show the foreman
why the window would not close properly. The frame was bent. The replacement frame was two inch to big and had to be cut to size.down. A kitchen had to be done twice, first time the plaster fell off the wall. Where was the Clerk of works? Consultants hundreds of thousands of pounds spent on Braunstone Hall it is still rotting away. Tell me how good it is.”
Friday, February 22 2013, 11:30PM
As you went to the trouble to make some long posts, I will try to respond to your comments:
"A hierarchical employment system exists to provide advancement and promotion opportunities within the same organisation."
All organisations try to do what's best for their employees, but in government organisations, there is no life-or-death competition so they quickly become self-indulgent and wasteful. Despite various reforms, no one has yet managed to rectify this.
"CAUSE AND EFFECT.. you might have heard of it."
That's why technocrats should leave the free market alone. The billions of daily interconnections are beyond human mental capacity. That's why everything they try to do tends to have the opposite effect. War on poverty = more poverty, war on drugs = more drug use, war on terror = more terror, war on communism.....
"I think if the entire Public Sector had a 1 day strike, there would be a national outrage."
That's why they hold the government and taxpayer to ransom.
"Rather than referring to a thesis - or a model - or a philosophy which you have read in a book or on Wikipedia.. let's see you explain what fundamental changes you would make to society as a whole.."
I've been influenced by hundreds of people over the years from writers to comedians on all sides of the political spectrum. Are you seriously expecting my to reconstruct 1000's of years of human development so I can sound more original?
"Show in brief - which fundamentals fail - in laymans terms, what you would do to correct the issue, the benefits and dis-benefits to whom and the likely result of change."
No one can create utopia, but many people believe that our current system is failing. You have to start somewhere.
"so with the level of corruption we have in the financial sector"
State legislation enables this corruption. It also stops ordinary people starting up their own financial institutions.
"Private Security rather than Policing for instance?"
Now that bobbies are more preoccupied with paperwork, most hands-on policing is done by private security firms i.e.; security guards, bouncers, store detectives, car park patrols, body guards, street pastors, old ladies and VOLUNTEERS etc. A council estate had to hire a security firm because their own police force was incapable of dealing with the problems.
"pay another private company to administrate the services which the public sector already provides."
Firms need to internalise all transaction costs including infrastructure. When they rely on public money - corruption ensures, bribes are taken.
"I believe that an efficient well run State, can provide, maintain and support (through infrastructure, education and public charter), a stable platform for the commercial private sector to thrive"
I wish it would too, but this has only occurred for short periods before the rot sets in.
"Who knows what drugs the horses chopped up in some processed meat have had.. and what effect it could have in years to come.. after all we thought it was beef we were paying for"
Proves that regulations don't work. There are many free-market solutions which are too numerous to list. But imagine if you took out an insurance policy which protected you against eating dodgy foods. If the shop wanted to stay in business, they'd better be careful what they sold... Current legislation protects all these offending supermarkets from going bust.
"We are Policed (governed) by consent.."
Voting one tax collector over another, isn't real choice.”
Friday, February 22 2013, 11:35PM
"State education if not provided will fall back to only those who can afford education,"
There is evidence that state schools were made compulsory to keep the emerging working class 'below stairs'. In the US, children had to be forced into the first state schools at gunpoint. Their parents knew instinctively what the plan was. Literacy levels are now lower in parts of the USA than before state education. Most university students are getting ripped-off. There is no reason why most degrees can't be obtained online for free. But I would draw the line with medical degrees.
"Our law consists of Experienced Judges who have progressed through the legal system or from respected and trusted positions"
There can be courts in a voluntary society that are not just tools used to protect the status quo.
"Average premiership player earnings 22k per week -Lowest recorded wage 4000 per week."
Disparity in earning power in the private sector does not embezzle our taxes like the public sector does. If individuals want to spend zillions of their OWN MONEY on season tickets or pop concerts or lousy movies, then more the fool them.
Citizens of a free society may still want to fund a military, but a militia of volunteers is good enough for home defence, if we stopped trying to police the world. If we didn't sell our submarines, we would still have a greater nuclear deterrent than most countries.
Countries in debt risk rising interest levels, loosing control of finances to foreign powers, or in worst case scenarios – military intervention. Tell your military pals to brace themselves. Can you appreciate the risks we are currently taking?
Hey, I didn't even quote anyone! I just used a bit of logic :-)
Saturday, February 23 2013, 1:53AM
“Nick Di Perna - show me an instance of your ideals being put into practice anywhere, and working.. is there a country in the world where most of your ideals actually work.
You have notion that everyone in the state is feeding from some big trough as you put it. Kindly laid on by you..
your self imposed austerity in order to contribute less to the "system" by denying yourself luxuries is not an answer, nor is it a policy - it's a lifestyle choice at best, based on a collective of principles that you would struggle to convince the greater population to adopt in support of your ideals. It's like penitence.
Do you trust your fellow human beings not to take advantage of a society that places greater trust in individuals, and is prepared to relinquish it's responsibilities in the hope that society will form a cohesive and respectful ungoverned society.
The very people you accuse of having no competitive edge - and being fat dumb and happy taking their shilling and some of yours..
At what point would your militia realise they don't just have the power to deter enemies, but they have the power to impose rule over their subjects.
I can tell by your ideals, that you have never been to Sierra Leone, or Mogadishu during the last 20 years.. maybe Rwanda..
after a period of Anarchy, you would end up with someone seizing power through the threat of force - it's a tribal, and feudal thing, it's in everyone's DNA, not just people, animals, even plants have a pecking order.
As for your conspiracy theory about Schools being a way of keeping people down..
and saying there is proof.. Utter nonsense, the Americans who feared sending their kids to school has absolutely nothing to do with their perception of an overlord agenda.
I am afraid with that comment alone - you pretty much undid your entire argument.
I really don't care how many thousands of texts you've read, or philosophies you've used to form your opinion.
Let me tell you something for nothing.. The fact that you are posting on this message board, and have had access to the topics you like to quote maybe even research - is probably a result of the education you have received from the state which is provided to crush you.
You make your arguments up on the hoof. For whatever reason you think you know better than every civilised society on this planet, and even when you propose dismantling it, you forget that we are animals, and every group of animals will form it's own hierarchy. I didn't do biology at school, but even I know it's how nature strengthens the genes of a species in order to perpetuate it's existence.
dissident 3 - nothing to do with living on another planet, if the tradesman contracted by the council to fit your windows did a poor job, it's probably because he is a cowboy and thought he could get away with it. A tenant as well as the owner has the right to have things done properly. You can't blame the council for someone else's shoddy workmanship, what you can do is report it, and then if the council still say they are happy with it, the I would concede that you have a point.
David - put the ra-ra skirt an Pom Poms back in the cupboard, it doesn't suit you..
Try reading what people are proposing - or suggesting, considering what the benefits are, then consider what the consequence would be..
No one ever said what we have now is perfect, but thousands of Migrants from other nations - supposedly better than our own, seem to want to come here every month - no why is that?”
Saturday, February 23 2013, 8:37AM
“@Chappy "show me an instance of your ideals being put into practice anywhere, and working.."
These are not ideals – they are just common sense. Freedom is not an ideal. It is a natural right. The Hong Kong experiment is just one instance where a backwater was turned into a metropolis overnight – it's not perfect, but it illustrates the potential when creativity is allowed to flourish without state interference. I hear a similar experiment is going on somewhere in the USA right now. This indicates that the elites are already looking for plan B. Go and seek it out yourself.
I could write whole essays about my recent experiences when visiting public departments and the shocking waste and inefficiency I saw with my own eyes. Small businesses close by seemed to be providing a lot more for a fraction of the costs.
These concepts seem to be alien to you and if you are sincerely interested in them then go on Youtube and listen to all the arguments and counter arguments. Make up your own mind.
"you would end up with someone seizing power through the threat of force - it's a tribal, and feudal thing, it's in everyone's DNA,"
Co-operation is also in our DNA and we can learn to curb our basic animal desires. And as already specified, nothing wrong with a natural, healthy hierarchy. It's government that is the main institution which enables those with the greatest drive for power over their fellow men to get into positions of controlling them.”
Saturday, February 23 2013, 10:43AM
The answers to all your questions are extremely complicated and probably beyond the scope of this comment section – that is why they are not easily adsorbed by the general public. For example: the arguments for minimum wage seem noble and generous, but the arguments against minimum wage (no matter how valid) will always seem selfish and depressing.
And just because something can't be proved empirically, doesn't mean the premiss is invalid. It is a common error many people make today and a way of dismissing perfectly feasible ideas and new lines of enquiry. As well as relying on measurable and empirical evidence, the scientific method does allow for a degree of logical reasoning where gaps are present in the hypothesis.
I always fall back on my own personal experience when validating a new principle. But if you spend most of your life in a hierarchy, it is sometimes difficult to see outside it. Similarly, if you are 30k in debt for a university education – you are not going to easily accept it was all in vain. You will more likely justify your actions by looking for a job that requires a degree than start up a business in a completely different field. You will also defend to 'right' of other people to go to university.
Also, there is the psychological phenomenon 'Groupthink' to consider: "It occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an incorrect or deviant decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative ideas or viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences. Loyalty to the group requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates their own abilities in decision-making, and significantly underrates the abilities of their opponents (the "outgroup")."
In the private sector this phenomenon is kept in check by market forces. In the military, it is kept in check by accidents and fatalities. In the public sector, it is disastrous, because they will continue to get funding as long as taxes can be collected and money can be printed or borrowed.”
Something about your area you want to voice and debate with others? Let your community know and see how they feel.
Join the debate
Copyright © 2013 Local World. All Rights Reserved.