“Reubedube, I can give you a very reasonable answer to your question, however I don't think you will like it. Perhaps it would be responsible for people to assess their financial situation before having a child. Having children is extremely expensive and taking on that level of responsibility without ensuring you have the means to care for them adequately is nothing shy of irresponsible.

We are living in a day and age with many single parents and of course it will be hard for them to manage financially. However, should that fall on the government or should the responsibility be put on the shoulders of the person who made these decisions?

I am not advocating turning out backs of people who need help. But I am a fan of altering the balance to put more responsibility on the parents, while taking some pressure off the tax payers.

This country has one of the most generous social systems I have ever seen. I know many Brits don't see it that way, but perhaps that is because it is all you know. As someone who has only lived here for 2.5 years now, I can appreciate the strain this all puts on the taxpayer.”

“You can't expect a Socialist like reubedube to think like that. Just carrying on having kids "the State will support us" attitude has been around for generations and is part of the cause of massive inherited deficit this Government is faced with.”

“The whole system of taxes and the 'tax brackets' have not been fair under all different governments for many years now. The divide of rich and the poor in this country is growing, but the so-called richer side of the coin is no-longer as affluent as they once were. Prices and inflation are coming down so they say but I haven't noticed this or any savings of late, has anyone else?”

“Personally I feel the tax rate in this county is quite low considering what social benefits are being given. Of the working people in this country, 75% are in the lower tax bracket (20%) which is brought up to 25% when you factor in their pension and unemployment premiums etc.

It may not sound low, but a 25% income tax rate in a country with free medical services and small user-pay premiums for dentistry is incredible value. I would argue the tax rates are too low considering the social benefits system and either taxes need to be raised, or benefits need to be reduced. As the system is now, it seems utterly unsustainable.

My data for the 75% statistic was from here: http://tinyurl.com/89q4pmu”

“I think it's a very fair point by rebedeube, its not a wholesale defence of those on benefits or as Eastonian inaccurately inferred a call for people to carry on having kids whilst expecting the state to pay for them.

This is going to push some that are close to the breadline below it, and a lot of those people will have been working desperately hard to work and contribute to society as well as look after children. They'll have been living on tight, responsible, ever decreasing budgets - running themselves ragged trying to get the work/kids balance right.

For every work shy scrounger there will be dozens of honest, hard working individuals who simply cannot survive these continual cuts.

Meanwhile the price of life's essentials continue to soar, shareholders get richer and those who are poor find themselves continually punished no matter how hard they apply themselves.

Maybe the tax rate is too low Allstar for what we receive in terms of healthcare and the rest and that we should all be paying more. I wouldn't have a problem with that if the powers at be could actually exercise some sort of control over the ever higher cost of living.

Privatisation was sold to us as beneficial to us the customer, competition they said (lied). It was the tories equivalent of Gordon Brown selling the gold short term gain for a few people long term suffering for the regular folk.

Those protesters who camped in Leicester identified the root of the problem, not so much capitalism but the people that thrive at the top end of the system. They have the power to temper their greed for the good of society and still enjoy a wealthy lifestyle no-one is calling for a communist state.

Of course cuts are necessary but we're not going to solve the deficit by simply pushing more and more people towards the edge.”

“It isn't an article, it's a letter written by a user.”

“What are you talking about Allstar??

And sure taxes here are very bad : ) x”

“Before I comment on some of the responses to this new topic I have brought to the forum, let me make my own position quite clear,so that my critics do not get the idea I have a financial interest in this, which I do not have.

In May of this year I'll be 86 years old. Married with three children,(we didn't have 'kids', we leave goats to give birth to them). Children - all adult now of course - each with their own homes and family, and fortunately, with good jobs and decent salaries.

BUT, in spite of my being in a reasonable position myself and my family also being reasonably secure; being a SOCIALIST,(as you quite rightly state 'Eastonian'), I am still interested in seeing others being treated fairly. Sadly, many of those living a good life, be it through their own hard work, good luck, or an inheritance, seem too easily able to adopt the ' I'm alright Jack' attitude
and are too ready to condemn others less successful in life. Please note, I do not generalise, I have written "many of those", not "all" !

Those who preach about how people should assess their financial situation before having a child
(Allstar); and make silly statements like "just carrying on having kids, the State will support us"
(Eastonian),really should make an effort not to continually generalise.

We all know of course that there are scroungers,layabouts and parents with a lack of parenting
skills. People in the latter category need help, not criticism ! I would suggest probably the bulk of those in the three groups I've mentioned,are in the lower income bracket,but not necessarily
all.

We all know of course there also are plenty of people in the higher income bracket who are not satisfied with their often highly unjustified inflated salaries,and many of them are guilty of
cheating to satisfy their greed.Somehow they are not as harshly condemned as the 'scroungers',
I wonder why ?

I wonder if those who support the idea of making 'Working Tax Credit' claimants work an extra 8 hours a week in order to be eligible for the Credit, will be able to tell these people just where to find this extra work ? For all David Cameron's puffing and blowing, his policies are just not working, he's shown himself to be capable of producing extra jobs for the Germans and French,
but all of those extra jobs the private sector were magically going to produce are still awaited.

I wonder too if these critics have any first hand knowledge of anyone in the position of needing to claim Working Tax Credits ? What about the young widow or widower with just one child to look after. You cannot condemn them for 'just carrying on having 'kids' for the state to support' can you ?

What of the wife or husband deserted by their spouse and left with a child to bring up,and their
spouse is providing no help to support the child ? Don't even think about the infamous CSA (Child Support Agency). They are about as much use as the present Coalition.

You have to be involved with people to learn the truth about many things in life,gossip and just relying on what you read in the press doesn't get you far.”

“@reubedube: You make some very compelling moral arguments. And yes, there will be people who will suffer regardless what rules or legislation are brought in. That being said, rules need to be made to suit the majority. As I already said, I do not believe the UK does turn its back on the poorer in society as the social safety net is bigger and more generous than in many other countries. But this isn't a game of comparisons, as I am sure you will note, we should only be concerned with the poorer people in this country.

The poorer people need assistance to lead a life that offers them food, shelter and health services. They get all that. There does have to be some aspect of personal responsibility as well, I am sure you will agree. Some people are born into bad situations, others make bad choices and I am not advocating a "serves you right" attitude, only an attitude of "let's help them to a point; give them the essentials, but that's all".

I am sure you are aware that the teen pregnancy rate in the UK is one of the highest in Europe. Of course there needs to be loads more education since 80% of teens sexually active admit not to using contraception! But on the flip side, they also need to know the state will not be there to pay for the raising of their children. Without personal responsibility playing a front and centre role, you create a system which is ripe for abuse.

There will also be the widows and the people whose marriages break up and for them I truly feel bad. On the other hand, there are a massive number of unwed parents who are creating a strain on the system which needs to be addressed.”

“AllstarLE1:
I have no wish to disagree with you, nor indeed anyone else for that matter, simply for the sake of disagreeing.

However, in the closing sentences of my previous post on this topic I wrote "You have to be involved with people to learn the truth about many things in life". That is not theory, but fact !

I am involved with people, and am aware of a number who will be sorely affected in April when the new ruling comes into effect requiring part-time workers to work a minimum of 24 hours a week to qualify for 'Working Tax Credit'.

The people of my acquaintance who I refer to, do have that 'personal responsibility' you quite rightly state should be there. But there are many hurdles to make life more difficult for some of these people.

They may have problems getting their child/children to school in the morning, and brought back home at the end of the school day.
Transport problems - particularly for those who live in the countryside - make it more difficult, and more expensive, to get to work and back home.

A sick child can become the source of more stress for a man or a woman, single-handedly juggling with trying to hold down a part-time job and maintain a reasonable home at the same time, however caring, conscientious and responsible minded that person may be.

I absolutely agree with your views expressed in the penultimate paragraph of your post, and personally believe it was way back in the 1960s when young people became more liberated and less bound by traditional sexual and social roles.

Your last paragraph though says a lot to me in the first line. "There will also be the widows and the people whose marriages break up and for them I truly feel bad".

With every respect to your views, 'feeling bad' about something doesn't help at all, does it ?
Half the trouble with David Cameron and lots of others around him, is that they offer sympathy and express regret about something, but no real support.”

“@Reubedube: You make some very valid points. Personally, I am not as socially-minded as you are meaning there will be a certain disconnect between the level of government help you want to see offered, compared to me.

Since you are a self-admitted Socialist, I would like to ask you about the best way to pay for these services. I am sure you will agree it is not inexpensive to offer the level of support you would like to ensure the elderly, poor, sick, disabled and widowed are all looked after. Would you support a tax rise to protect all the social programs while also digging ourselves out from the deficit? And if not, how would you recommend the government pays for these services?”

“AllstarLE1:

I fully accept your well chosen non-controversial words, "there will be a certain disconnect between the level of government help you want to see offered, compared to me".
As you rightly assume, I do agree it is not inexpensive to offer the level of support I would like, to ensure the elderly, poor, sick, disabled and widowed are all looked after.

"Would I support a tax rise to protect all the social programs while also digging ourselves out from the deficit" ?
A very positive yes - but that yes would of necessity go in hand with other measures I would expect to be taken.

The current Coalition Government did not need to tackle the deficit in the 'ham-fisted' manner they have in fact adopted.Latest reports show our economy to now be in reverse,unemployment
at a 17 year high and £158 billion extra borrowing.

To start with then the Coalition need to do a U turn, however much 'loss of face' that may cause
Mr Cameron and his cabinet. They need to bring into play policies which will get people back to work, thus boosting the economy and at the same time reducing the amount being paid out in unemployment benefits.
Reduce VAT to last years level,thus providing a little more incentive for people to spend, again a further boost for the economy.

Taxing banker's bonuses should further help the Exchequer without hurting the bankers who it seems are pretty well rewarded for their work without the need for a huge bonus.

So when it comes down to it, would there really be a need for a tax rise, or might it perhaps be a case of fairer distribution of monies already available ?”

“The tax paid by myself is far too high now. The basic rate may be 20% but add to that the VAT at 20% massive duties on petrol, alcohol and air fares. Council Tax I pay is £2400 a year , VED is enormous (£245) unless you have an ultra modern car that has 'limbo'd' under the idiotic EU rules. Then we have 40% inheritance tax . This country is all tax , and why? Because it spends far too much . The benefits in the UK attracts claimants and once you are on one and get the jackpot of others kicking in. Plus of course these types will get council paid for care when elderly but it will cost me £40K a year. I am sick of paying for others that should have planned their lives better. All my life I paid tax mostly at higher rates too to prop up government waste. It is time it was reduced drastically. The UK living standards are set to fall by a long way in the next decades so you all may as well get ready for it to happen. Borrowing your way out of financial crisis , as G Brown tried to, leads to the mess that the Greeks now find themselves in.”

“I havent actually read all of the above posts, simply because of the confusion :/ firstly let me reassure you reubedube, the 24 hr rule does not apply to single parents, only to those in a couple. I find it extremely offensive when people say 'if you rely on benefits you shouldnt have children' Id like to know which of my children they would choose to have 'got rid of' when me and my partner were made redundant a few years ago.”

“mamt35:

Thank you for clarifying the point regarding just who will be eligible under the new 24 hours rule, for Working Tax Credit. I only know from what I have read in the press and heard on T.V., non of which I see as totally reliable sources.

From the content of all of your posts it would appear you are probably directly involved, or have been, with these sort of matters.

None of this affects me personally as I have indicated in other posts of mine, even so, like yourself I find totally unacceptable the view 'if you rely on benefits you shouldn't have children'.

These sort of comments, in my view, probably come from people who are comfortably well off and are of the type "I'm all-right Jack", selfish and uncaring about others.”