“"has completely failed." or "have complety failed"

My grammar is still a bit iffy. Was educated in inner-city state schools – nuff said :-).”

“you really are determined to get a response out of this 50k per year dit aren't you, this is your second topic directly targeting it, as well as the other unrelated topics where you've mentioned it.”

“Love you too, Chappy.”

“…..but it's actually a letter to the editor.”

“when will you realise,

that what the public sector pay their employees, and what the private sector pay theirs are completely unrelated.

Private Sector employees pay is decided by their bosses, shareholders, and governed by their level of productivity. A big firm like a bank may pay it's execs more in bonuses than those at the bottom get in 10 years. This is hardly ethical - yet you demand the public pot puts more in to help the hard up private sector to pay it's lowest a bit more?

In reality - an affluent business that can afford to pay it's employees but doesn't, versus a struggling business that cuts it's overheads to survive..

The public sector is neither of these, but just because money comes from tax, doesn't mean we can do without it, and what would happen if we suddenly made all public servants redundant, could the private sector cope with all these unemployed job hunters,
We wouldn't have any staff to manage or provide a welfare state or health care,
But all these people who suddenly find themselves unemployed won't be able to afford anything the private sector makes either, so we'll end up being governed by a corporation... sound familiar? like a certain author you have quoted recently?

Public Sector wages take into account loyalty, length of service, comparable pay for certain skill sets in relation to private sector, retention value versus supplementary recruitment.
Job Security is no longer automatically guaranteed, and pensions are dependent on minimum terms of service.

As someone who has worked in both sectors - there is very little difference.
Your whole crusade is becoming rather tedious, and not a single one of the many philosophies you quote have any single overriding similarity other than that none of them have successfully been adopted or formed a stable platform in society, what is worse still is that none of them are your own ideals, they are just books in a library to which you treat us to titles and the occasional profound summary.

I don't represent any party or faction or level of authority, so before you stereotype me - I am purely argumentative - because you have subscribed to one ideal, you are besotted with garnering approval for your thoughts and you honestly believe that everyone who believes in anything close to the status quo ultimately believes there is no room for improvement or they seek to crush free thinking which may undermine their socio-economic agenda.

This is not a book, it's not a novel, people do have free will, unions rebelling against cuts, students throwing fire extinguishers at the police without thinking it through, peaceful protests calling for death to our armed forces, eco warriors digging themselves underground to prevent a road being built, the Arab Spring, everything people do is for their own reasons, some are easily led, some strive to be different, but there is no system that keeps things suppressed - you have the freedom to move to other societies to gain your expressive freedom, you are not imprisoned for your thoughts, even the Freemasons were formed out of repression - where do you think the Templars disappeared to?

I am not trying to supress your ideals, but not everything stems from one controlling group or entity - sorry but it's simply not like that, and if I subscribed to your idealogy - rather than not subscribing to any and seeking to evolve and shape what we have, then thousands of years of social evolution and progress might as well be ditched, and we all listen to Nick Di Perna - then wouldn't that make you a hypocrite?”

“Well said”

“A Scientific analogy -
The further you try to distance yourself from an object, the more similar to it you become.”

“Corporations, man. It's them flipping corporations and banks... Not that you'd be able to run one for even a day :-).

Choosing between corporations and state bureaucracies is like choosing between dog mess and cat mess. Both are very very evil entities; would love to see both abolished. But the liberal/left are suspiciously silent about the crimes of the latter.

As bad as the corporations and financial institutions are, it is extremely foolish to expect any Government to destroy the last vestiges of wealth creation this country has to offer with crippling taxes in order to prop-up inefficient and bloated bureaucracies which produce nothing.

A gradual decentralisation of both financial and bureaucratic power in equal measures would be the way to go. But neither side wants to give ground. They both enjoy their unique privileges. And the ordinary person is trapped in between.

Like it or not - this is the 'balanced' perspective.”

“Social Justice
Work hard - earn more, (but only if you work for the private sector)
Don't work - demand more from the public sector - but don't forget we don't need the Public Sector - so who will be there to hand out this social justice?”

“The money available is put in a pot(oops trough) to be shared.First into the trough are the councillors and mayors then council "executives". The rest is left to be fought over with the elderly and homeless last in line .
Call themselves Socialists?”

“I'm not surprised at all the City Council has not supported he Coalition government to freeze Council Tax.

Remember they are the party of 'Spend, Spend, Spend' culture and just look at where that policy has left us 3 years on!!”

“Chappy1884

It seems that continue to miss the whole point of Nick's comments. At no point has he suggested abolishing the Public Sector and at no point has he suggested that the Private Sector is without fault.

I feel that some of your comments (hopefully not deliberately) are dismissive and becoming insulting. Instead of personalising this why not simply respond to the key points in Nick's letter?

If we start form the standpoint that we need the Public Sector do you think that it is fair and reasonable that in these difficult times:

A cleaner employed by by LCC should be paid and rewarded better than someone in the Private Sector doing the same job? - I only use the cleaner role as I think that it is a job that one can compare without some of the spurious arguments about special skills and experience.

Do you think that it is reasonable that LCC seems to need more highly paid executives than other similar sized Local Authorities?

Do you think that it is 'just' that we have to pay more Council Tax when money is available to freeze it?

Would you acknowledge (even to a small degree maybe) that Local Authority administrations have grown too large?”

“Council tax will be changing for everyone soon. The government have revamped the whole matter (or will be soon) of council tax/taxes and we will all feel this in our wallets soon sadly.”

“"Amazon's human robots: They trek 15 miles a day around a warehouse, their every move dictated by computers checking their work. Is this the future of the British workplace?":

http://tinyurl.com/a2ky4ly

Done this kind of work for almost 2 years now, for £6.41 per hour, lifting tools up to 45kg in weight, in much worse conditions than those at Amazon. The manual work situation has been deteriorating in the UK for years.

No sick pay, just very basic voluntary pension scheme, no sit down tea breaks, fewer holidays and a 6.00am start. No tax credits or council tax benefits.

Compare this to the pay and perks now enjoyed by the public sector.

And just where are the "checks and balances" that are supposed to be provided by the state bureaucracies?

Or should we just keep blaming Thatcher for everything?”

“@ Chappy1884: "A Scientific analogy - The further you try to distance yourself from an object, the more similar to it you become."

So the further I try to distance myself from a Bouncy Castle, the more I become like one? ;-)

Some people have to tell the truth even though the sky falls. Do the right thing though the heavens crack. And keep pecking at the stone of power till it turns into powder. Certain 'annoying people' have to be this way for humanity to improve. We're the mutant genes of the social body that actually make it evolve, and the only ones who 'can' make it evolve during periods of stagnation. A hardcore-rational perspective needs a basic understanding of the psychology of relationships and be able to think outside the box.”

“If you feel so strongly about issues, instead of continually spouting your views here where every right minded person will justifiably ignore you, why don't you try standing as a councillor so your ideas can be voted on? I suspect it is because you realise that you would stand no chance that you massage your ego in the local rag in an attempt to bypass the democratic process.”

“@remoulder

What's wrong with talking about things you can't change? Anyway, I happen to think that the best way for a change in outlook is through exposure and raising awareness.

And, strictly speaking, would you say that the best way to bring down a Mafia-style gang is by becoming a member?

If what I have to say is so unimportant, why have so many people tried to discredit me? I'm only a shelf-stacker.”

“Its a labour council what else do you expect, spend money on expensive nobodys and schemes that cost millions and expect the council taxpayers to cough up”

“More disparity between the public and private sector:

In today's Mercury, "Leicester company fined £10,000 after worker lost finger"
http://tinyurl.com/ablp8b5

Yet...

"Nurse handed £50,000 compensation after injuring herself while drawing curtains around patient's bed"
http://tinyurl.com/al2wvwr

"Lancashire council paid £800,000 in damages and £140,000 in legal costs in a case where a teaching assistant tripped over the waist strap of a wheelchair, suffering a finger and elbow injury."
http://tinyurl.com/b3h9jn9

A young doctor was awarded nearly £500,000 in damages after *****ing her finger on a needle left on a hospital trolley. She developed "needlestickphobia", although she did not develop an infection.
http://tinyurl.com/adqggnj”

“From an EU website:

"In terms of socio-economic status, the city is relatively deprived; about half the wards in Leicester rank amongst the most deprived 10% in England, with only two ranking in the top 50%.

Its economy today is focused mainly on administrative, retail and light manufacturing activities. There are no major "heavy" industries in the city, consequently road transport is the city's main contributor to air pollution."”

“why freeze any thing sir pete is showing the council have plenty to spare on his hair brained schemes so ether we have a council who are a bunch of liers or pete is spending his own money i dont think”

“If this is the quality of debate, no wonder we get the council we deserve.”

“I haven't read all this thread, I have to admit: just the juicy bits. All I wish to say is that the quality of a debate is debased by personal attacks on the participants NickdePerna1 has some valid points. Rather than attack him personally, why not present a reasoned response?”

“@IAmAwake "NickdePerna1 has some valid points. Rather than attack him personally, why not present a reasoned response?"


If you are not annoying anyone, then your points are generally meaningless.

The occurrences stated in my letter were reported in major newspapers and my own personal conclusions are difficult to dispute based on the evidence. The only thing left for critics in a situation like this is an argumentum ad hominem.

Yet I am surprised that the 'usual suspects' are absent from this comment thread. The so-called "progressive" types who are normally very quick to attack anything from "cuts" to "reactionary" viewpoints. They obviously lack a capacity for introspection when their own cherished institutions fail miserably.

Rather than dealing with things intellectually, ostracisation is a common reaction towards a harbinger of bad news.”

“Nick

Yes the progessives run away - turkeys don't vote for Christmas.”

“i think some are not bothering to comment, because we are tired of the same subject rephrased, and thrown in with topics over and over again :/ ... The private sector cannot operate or survive without input from the public sector. Thats been stated over and over again..There are debateable issues about experience, training, qulaifications when considering public pay vs private pay..again said over and over again..The living wage, is merely a way of avoiding taking from the welfare state in the way of in-work top-up benefits instead of employerspaying a decent wage, and many private as well as public sector employers are signing up (or have signed up) in the areas where it is in place. In Leiceser (as far as i have read) it was a suggestion, a 'push for' ..but is not actually up and running :/”

“Democrat - I get it 100 per cent. It's how you interpret it.
Regarding the distance quote - it's relative to dominant mass exerting gravity on smaller objects. As soon as you are far enough away - you eventually become a dominant mass - and attract smaller objects - which increase your mass, larger mass = greater gravity = ability to attract progressively larger objects.. replacing the word object for Bouncy castle is funny, but pointlessly sarcastic.

Nick is anti-establishment. But offers no viable alternative - as a democratic - capitalist society will ultimately strive to defend it's own property and seek to expand - no matter what level you operate at. If you want proof that communism doesn't work other than to repress social classes by installing a governing elite - simply look at the new capitalist Russia - Whilst many hard liners hark back to the old days - it's more about power and control, the Oligarchs simply see it, want it, buy it, or take it, they drip feed their servants, whilst former public figures have vanished in obscurity, and that's why some hard liners preferred it the old way, but those at the bottom rung of the ladder are cursing the purported theft of their apparent wealth and resources by the former ruling elite.

It is getting boring, and no matter what you think Nick Di P.. it's not necessary to politicise every single story with your Over-Class, Under-Class rally. If you really believe in your cause - get a soap box, some banners and boards and take it to the public face to face.
But I suppose that those who oppose or disagree - rather than being free minded and realistic will be sorted into categories in your mind.

Drones - who are brainwashed..
Elitists - who are trying to squash your message to protect their cosseted lifestyle
Hangers On - who perceive gain by serving the Elitists and have much to lose
the Apathetic - who don't understand your cause - rather than having no interest.

No one who disagrees, I reckon, will be afforded any credit for their own thoughts, they'll either be stupid, or brainwashed or elitist authoritarians..

But the only way to find out how popular and accurate your ideals would be - is to get out there and face the electorate..”

“@ Demo

These collectivists are absent because they're still discussing a valid counterargument. They've already hired a lawyer and are considering bringing in more consultants ;-).

@mam

Several weeks ago, when I made the assertion that public-servants where better off, I was ridiculed and red-flagged. Since then, several reports have surfaced that have confirmed what I've been saying all along.

The socialist perspective is that ordinary people are exploited for their labour. But they fail to acknowledge that the ordinary person is also becoming a tax-slave for a bureaucratic fat-cat elite.

There is a simple equation. If you give money to the poor in benefits or training allowances, only a fraction of it reaches its intended target after filtering through the layers and layers of bureaucrats who never lose out. It is not uncommon for a manager in the free market to clean their own offices and manage their own post etc.; I can't imagine any public-sector executives doing tasks like this.

We could end up with a situation like in New York where retired pensioners are forced back into work due to crippling local tax rises.”

“..."It is not uncommon for a manager in the free market to clean their own offices and manage their own post etc.; I can't imagine any public-sector executives doing tasks like this."

Many Jobs like office cleaning etc in the public sector are tendered out, even my childrens school milk is contracted out. Most to private sector firms..many whom without their contracts with the public sector would be struggling.”

“@mam "Many Jobs like office cleaning etc in the public sector are tendered out, even my childrens school milk is contracted out. Most to private sector firms..many whom without their contracts with the public sector would be struggling."

So the establishment steals money from your business through taxes, then if you want to survive, you have to beg some of it back by providing local services, that's if you are lucky enough to be chosen?

Is this a true market relationship? Where do you think the root of corruption lies? Can you really justify the great iniquities of our time with your shallow arguments?”

“..."you have to beg some of it back by providing local services"

Do you actually know how it works Nick??? They do very well out of the governmant contracts..and make a tidy profit. Its usually a fixed price contract, which means if they can be efficient and pay small amount in wages they will make a profit, and thats exactly what they do. Unfortuately quality and pricing for goods/services suffer..I don't agree with the huge pushes for privatisation, never have done. And we can see by the privatisation of utilities, and travel, what it means to competition and pricing.

I would hardly call them 'shallow' arguments.

The facts are that the government feel this is a 'cheaper' option for the public purse, however as said above, we pay the price out of our pockets, and the quality of service.”

“No mam - he doesn't.

He talks about the preparation of counter arguments, but he has nothing to offer,
he talks about ideals where we abolish the welfare system, so that in turn we can abolish those who administer it - and ultimately abolish tax altogether.

He talks about people being tax slaves.
Ridiculous.
It is physically impossible to be a tax slave on an earning related level.
Because the less you earn the less you pay, and if your don't earn, or earn less than the threshold you don't pay.
If you don't buy - or only buy VAT exempt items - you don't pay,
If you don't own a car - you don't pay.
If you live in temporary accommodation - you don't pay council tax.
If you don't have a job - your benefits are paid, and tax is deductible on certain benefits - but if someone hands you 10 quid and says it would have been 15 but we took 5 off for expenses, you are still 10 quid better off than you were - especially if you haven't earned it.

There is no scenario where you are forced to work solely to keep up with tax.

The establishment "STEALS" money from your business?
Really - If I wanted to sell Heaters - I'd go to a cold country to sell them, if all the cold countries in the world had massive taxes on businesses I would inflate my prices to manage.
I wouldn't go to a hot country - where there are no customers to avoid tax.

Businesses go where the customers are - they adjust their operating costs to acclimatise to the local market. If it's cheaper to import - or export, they do so. If the infrastructure is poor, they lobby local councils with incentives - like we will bring x thousand jobs, but we need you to sort out the roads.

No one is stealing anything. Apple make Ipods in foreign countries and ship them in, meaning they don't have to pay the overheads on having a business in the UK, and they can mitigate their tax losses and shipping costs by having low manufacturing costs.

I am now tired of this. Like I've said to Nick di Perna - the only way you can truly see if your "OWN" ideals are popular is to get out there - put your head on the block and canvass for support - but try and do it without being a hypocrite.”

“Well said Nick.”

“@Chappy
Some of the people who've had the greatest influence on policy change have been writers and independent 'think tanks'. Not saying I'm up to that high calibre, but at the very least, I do try to live by my principles. There's more than one way to crack a nut.

Historically, we've seen the destruction that reactionist and collectivist mindsets can do when they become mass movements. Real change may have to come from the individual, no matter how long it takes.”

“nick - think tanks and political commentators and spectators are all well and good theorising what should and shouldn't be done, it may be the case that some leaders might have subscribed partially to their ideals in some way - but saying they have had great influence on policy change is probably stretching the statement a bit far.

The fact is you can only vote for a party that puts itself up for election, all electoral parties are led, you don't vote for a collective which doesn't have a single figure of accountability or delegation of individuals to share the collective responsibility in implementing policies and proposing initiatives. Initiatives and influences on politics are organic - what you write in your manifesto might be irrelevant 2 weeks after the election, some policies may be forced further back in the agenda due to emergence or escalation of more immediate concerns, these may stretch budgets as well as time from what you promised the electorate, diplomacy may be required - you can't predict all events and what resources they'll require. The Police in London had to make cuts, even with the additional burden of the Olympics, The Jubilee, A Royal Wedding, no one could foresee that the Riots would take so much out of the budget. We couldn't cancel the National events to save a few quid which had to be spent on impromptu weddings and civil unrest, and it would have been unfair to cancel existing projects.

Politics and Socio-economics don't follow a script. You can read every book in the world on the subject - but all it proves is that every book that was previously regarded as a reliable study or blue print - has become obsolete by the authoring of a later one or a different methodology. Ultimately what it proves is - that someone thinks they know better.

I don't have a problem with you personally - you say what you believe in, I just wish you'd restrain the sheer amount of topics you try to squeeze it into. Some things don't have a political agenda, and others just want to talk about them for what they are.

As I said - I can't vote for the worlds great thinkers,
I can't subscribe to their ideals in a call to re-shape our society,
because in a democracy - we don't actually need a revolution to overthrow a government,
we need an ideal with a strong enough following and official representation that enough people will believe in it - and either force those already in power to adapt and change, or to give way at the next election.

The problem with "new thinking" is if it does become popular, and the main players jump on it to placate people with slightly less conviction than you do - it will become a political "trend" or "Buzz word" topic - which will give them a leg up into power, they'll then pay lip service to it, and drop it like a hot potato the first chance it looks like back firing or if they aren't fully committed. That is why if you truly believe in effecting a change - you have to take the first step yourself - and put yourself out there.

All your authors in the world can't help you do it, because none of them have the desire to influence British society in 2013. If they did they'd be using our electoral system to open the door to influence change. After all, if they have a tried and tested, or foolproof plan - then the public shouldn't take much convincing. Once in power, you can gradually dispense with the trappings of society that you disagree with, as long as you permit democracy to remain.”

“Ok, so if we have an 'ideal world' as in Nicks idea of what that should be...What do people think would happen to the poor, the needy, the disabled?? In the past, before an enforced 'welfare state', we had the churches, who were at that time the backbone of providing for those in need..religions and churches have now taken a back seat, or should I say pushed out. Charities are closing by the dozen because they simply cannot find the funding, especially with the present government..even the most fundamental help like the Independent Living fund. Community organisation, day centres...all falling by the wayside. And what about the public services like the police, firefighters, the NHS, the armed forces...What replaces them Nick?”

“Absolutely, Mam35. I manage a local charity. We've barely survived the last year and after gargantuan efforts we can pretty much safely say we're ok for next year. All staff - me included - had a pay cut in order to stay open, and we're all struggling.

I clean my own office, incidentally.

I'm paid a lot less than an equivalent worker in the public or private sector. I don't moan about that: I'm doing a job I want to do, knowing full well that my pay would be lower where I am.

Nick takes the top earners in the public sector and uses them as an example of profligacy but fails to recognise that the smaller cogs in the machine are much lower paid and face an effective pay cut this year. It's tough too for the smaller cogs in the private sector.

So how do Nick's views square with the bankers making massive losses and still expecting huge, lavish bonuses?

Personally I'd like to see Nick putting himself up for election. I've always liked one-trick pony acts.”

“I do feel we are turning back the clocks in this country. Some seem to think thats a good idea, and then there are people like ourselves DonHenson, that see the true picture.

Its crazy to be talking about trimming down council funding, public service funding, charity funding..and yet the government are increasingly passing over more and more responsibility to local gavernment and councils whilst at the same time cutting their budget, more admin staff needed. I now hear that what will be put forward as an alternative to the closed ILF will be run by local government/council..god help us all :(”

“@DonHenson

Highlighting bankers bonuses doesn't justify having huge bloated bureaucracies. You can leave that silly public-sector union spin at home.

Also, any charity which has paid managers, layers of paid admin staff and relies on taxpayer funding; isn't really a 'charity'. From my own personal experience, I've found that those who really care give real voluntary time with personal hands-on effort and discretion. Not the showy self-congratulatory displays of superior virtue combined with a pay packet.

And of course I wouldn't have a chance of being elected – nor would I want to dictate how others should live. Politics is mob rule, but that doesn't stop me stating facts or having an opinion.”

“Why do you think most charities are now run in that way Nick? If you take away government grants and funding, and charitable donations are not as forthcoming as they used to be, they have no other option but to try and run as a business does.

'Those who really care'..are usually those still working for the charity, but unable to afford to give their time for free since the pressures and demands are now greater.”

“You are right NickdiPerna1 about charities,

all of these Telethons have got it wrong.
2 pounds a month to build a well, what are they thinking?
We shouldn't be trying to raise more than last years target, we should be recruiting thousands of volunteers to give up their time and go and work abroad at their own expense.

And all of those doing full time jobs like moving logistics, how selfish of them to earn a wage.

You are stating facts.. not really - you are stating opinions and theories,
Facts can be proven.
Stating that Education is a tool of suppression, just because someone once said it in a book,
Stating that the Police are puppets for the Corporation, just because a fictional author once predicted it,
Stating that a welfare state provided and administered by public subsidy is a compliance by dependency model - whilst the private sector feed this monster.
Without ever taking into account that the private sector can't afford to employ those out of work let alone the thousands in the public sector you propose to make redundant.

Yes some people do donate large sums to charity to raise their profile, some raise money by doing high profile events or work, but the majority of people in this country are struggling, yet they still donate to these causes, whether it's to feel good about themselves or not, you don't have the right or the knowledge to judge these people.

You state that Politics is "mob rule" and not of your concern - but you constantly question a politically governed and agreed social order, which in itself means you have a political agenda, whether it's to instigate change in your own ideology, or just to be disruptive - you have the rudiment of a policy - which if you garnered support would make you an activist, maybe even a Politician yourself.

You sound to me like the only person you trust is yourself, and that you can manage without society, so why not become a recluse and leave those in society who are happy, or want to make changes for good through democratic channels, to do so without your de-constructive comments and disruption.

You have a few cheerleaders on here, one who even held you up as a leader,
(obviously an expert in leadership) - but from what I gather that must rankle you, for leaders are those you seek to root out - not to become one yourself.

Am I right?”

“Nick has the right idea.”

“does he now?”

“Happy1900, If someone like Nick was allowed to have their ideas adhered to, we would be in dire straits im afraid..a lawless, wretched society, back to the days of begging in the streets for the poor and incapable (although that is now outlawed, so possibly just dying in the streets) Only the strongest and fittest would survive...”

“The idea of having a website comments area is to voice your opinions within reason. We all have different views and ideas. People on here should remember that and not act like children just because someone does not agree with you. All the people on here should learn to be more respectful and listen and learn from each other. I enjoy reading and commenting at times as others do. Why is that so hard for some?”

“And thats exactly what people are doing, voicing opinions, views, ideas, but also challenging those opinions. Its the way a debate works....I do not see that as acting like a 'child'. If you do chose an open forum to voice an opinion then you expect to have that opinion challenged :/”

“That is right mam35 and if not the comment will be acted upon : )”

“As you said before mam35 you do not get out much so it is a chance for you to mix and enjoy yourself : )”

“if you don't want me to scrutinise your opinions, there is one simple thing you can do to avoid it,

BASE THEM ON FACT!

if you genuinely believe in a principle or have expressed a judgement based on inaccurate information then things can be debated and taken into account. But if you subscribe to the school of thought where you believe every word that popular figures tell you, without question, even if they are wrong, and you are never open to being corrected even when you are challenged and presented with the facts - then what is the point in even entering into a debate - you've already found your answer - you are just seeking to gratify yourself with support - or by convincing others that you are correct.

People once thought the world was flat, and imprisoned those who questioned that belief, until it was actually proven that it's not. Once it was proven, those who believed it was flat refused to accept it, why? because it made all their other philosophies and belief's questionable.

As stated - if your belief is based on inaccuracy - you can be forgiven, and hopefully learn, (we all believe things that aren't right from time to time), but if you won't hear any opposition, then ultimately the whole process of debate is wasted and no one benefits.”

“@mam

From my perspective, it's very apparent that the public sector gives status, high salaries and gold-plated pensions to many unworthy people who significantly overrate their own abilities and value to society. These people live off our taxes, they are a parasite class. I wouldn't have them begging on the streets, but would like to see them in a more fitting occupation that matches their abilities - like working behind the cheese counter in Tescos.”

“Outside my house all I see is loads of beer cans from people who don't work : ( x”

“Going back to the original post...Nick, is Leicester not freezing council tax then?? Frozen for the fourth year running in my area of leicestershire, although (of course) the poorest will now have to pay some council tax as changes to council tax benefit regulations. :/ Do you have links to their plans, as I thought council tax was frozen for those who could already afford to pay it in all of Leicester/Leicestershire ?”

“nick di perna - In one move you've alienated those who work behind the Cheese counter in a certain supermarket. Or have you actually elevated the status of the person working behind the Cheese counter?

Gold Plated Pensions - a common term - so I want you to explain exactly what a "GOLD PLATED PENSION" actually is, other than a cliché.

Unworthy people in the Public Sector - which people and at what level exactly do you determine who is unworthy?

The loyal servant who has progressed through the ranks for 40 years?
The high roller who was lured into the job (from the private sector - a la Adam Crozier etc.)?
because he was more highly regarded than those already within the Public Sector? (which agrees with your argument) and then makes a total hash of the Post Office, proving that his private sector nous isn't as transferrable as once believed?

What skills do these people in the posts you speak of have in common with the person working on the Cheese Counter? - What qualifications do you have to judge and appoint people?

Like I said - Some have progressed through the ranks and have put the time in - through many governments. They can only do their jobs - they don't dictate the policy, their pay masters - straight out of Oxford and Cambridge - via PR and Charm School, with Daddy's money and peer influences (not just conservative), are the ones who decide what resources the public sector ultimately get to work with.

Yes there are some who have blagged their way in to top positions - (Former head of the BBC etc) who's input and lack of control, and often negligent attitude - doesn't justify their perks and pay scale - but often (as stated) these people are head hunted from top private sector posts..

So it would be helpful if you answered my questions.

What is a gold plated pension? And what injustice is there if such a thing exists?
What wage structure - top down (in detail if you please) - is fair for the public sector?
How do you address the balance of Retention vs Recruitment if you cut all the pay scales?
Who do you propose is more qualified than a Cheese Counter Operative to hold some of these roles? Private Sector bosses? (like the two I mentioned?) How do you propose the Public Sector attracts those with the right skills whilst keeping income low enough, and pensions meagre enough so as not to conflict with your opinion?

You have obviously thought it all through - so instead of spouting off, actually state some answers, plausible ones (not philosophical ones based on the works of someone else).

Mam35 - beer cans question? If I were Rachel and saw people ditching beer cans outside her house - I would probably not approach them. If I were me - then I would approach them, difference being - I am confident I can handle myself and wouldn't be intimidated.

Rachel may know the culprits - There are Beer Cans outside the Job Centre in Newark and the bin is overflowing with Fag Packets, maybe the staff there have a drinking and smoking problem, and we should breath test them when they drive home from work? Or just maybe it's the clientele.

Not going to argue about what could and couldn't be true - behaviour shouldn't be down to social status - and we all know that you hold the unemployed and those claiming benefits in the highest esteem - and secretly at night gangs of executives and homeowners sneak into council estates to fly tip, graffiti the place and mug the locals - before sneaking back to their suburban utopia to beat up their family before a good nights sleep before work..

Sorry for the sarcasm.. but you must see why some people hold certain views and some people avoid certain areas, whilst others feel comfortable there.”

“I think that was a bit unfair :/ My defence of the unemployed is purely because of the amount of sterotyping and nastiness that is directed towards them in recent times, they are a small in number compared to the population figures. There is good and bad in evey section of society, some tend to get the stick more than others, and sometimes unfairly so. I think you will find that alcohol problems span across all sections of society, all classes, as does addiction to smoking, and the lack of care of property.”

“That is right mam35”

“mam35,

I did say sorry for the sarcasm.
Beer cans and fag ends at the Job Centre.. why are they there? if it's the staff, they should be disciplined, if it's the clientele then it proves they aren't taking the jobseeking thing seriously.

Social housing estates - in general are they in worse repair or better repair than private housing.
Is it the landlords role to come and clear the garden and get rid of litter and graffiti?

Anti-social behaviour orders - it's a fact that despite the majority of the population as you quite rightly state being outside social care or in full time employment, the majority of anti-social behaviour orders have consistently been awarded against members of families in full time social care or out of work. Breaches of the Peace are almost exclusively in the same bracket.

This was not what it was about Mam35 - I believe in a balance - but to maintain that balance - and be given the same chances - people have to do their bit.

Nature and the elements don't cause the damage to social housing, it doesn't dump rubbish, it doesn't smash the windows, it doesn't graffiti the walls, and it also doesn't clean it up.
And neither do the landlords. For every 5 or so houses where people behave responsibly, there is one that lets them all down, and usually through intimidation of some kind, prevents them from standing up for themselves.

Yes there are problems in the Private and employed sector - but on the whole, you have to admit - apart from bored kids, it's really less common.

A profound reply from David as usual - along the usual theme,
"If you argue with Chappy - David will support you."”

“That's right Chappy.”

“Chappy. On the contrary, from my own experience people in retail possess far more practical common sense and real world knowledge than your typical 'paper qualified' public sector administrator. Their roles should be reversed.

They have far more responsibilities than people realise too. I knew a poor lady approaching retirement who accidentally served a tall lad during a very busy period without asking for his id. This lady who had never committed a crime in her life was picked up in a police van from work. She wasn't fined, but the experience nearly drove her towards having a breakdown. I can't imagine doctors or town hall staff being treated that way through negligence.

Retail staff are also responsible for challenging shoplifters - there's not always a security guard on every floor like in a public office. They work evenings and weekends for no extra pay where as most public offices are closed. They add more value to society than a diversity officer. Those leeches who gain income and status from a bloated bureaucracy will have to go before there can be any serious debate regarding banker's bonuses.”

“Retail work was so much fun when I was a student, some good laughs and nice people. Nice honest work is retail. I couldn't afford to work in that sector now unless it was a management role. Life is too costly under this government well all governments....”

“Council tax is the one tax I cannot understand, it is overpriced, and to think every item we buy has tax already on it. The government sure know how to rip us all off. What does the council tax cover that we are not already paying for through taxation the bin man and women then what?”

“You have a point there Martin. All we do is pay taxes all our lives we pay it by wages, food, drink and just to sit on our bums at the weekend!”

“Yeah that is true martin & Zoolander taxes are on most things then there is that new 20% tax on fizzy drinks. My dad is always moaning about the tax on beer for example and council tax is so expensive : ( x”

“Council Tax is high I will agree there, but remember you can claim for help depending on your circumstances at your local council offices.

Good news for your dad Rachel, the beer tax in supermarkets is not going up!”

“Reading over these comments, I would like to hear more from all the users, as it is very interesting. Beer tax was never going to happen was it?”

“Well I think council tax should be made loads cheaper as not many people can afford it : ( x”

“Let's not forget that one quarter of our council tax goes towards gold-plated pension contributions for council staff. So people who have no other pension provision (other than reliance on the state retirement pension of around £5,000 a year), are being forced to pay council tax so that council workers can be far better off in retirement.

There's no justice in this whatsoever. It's obscene.”

“There you have it Nick. Life is unfair at times but we have to move forward or we wil all be unhappy chappys.”

“we need more people working and stop taking that would help x”

“Councillors are due to discuss the pay policy for senior managers when they meet on Thursday:

http://tinyurl.com/aar7x89

From the start of the next financial year the council's top officer Andy Keeling, acting head of paid service, will be paid £140,233.

Strategic director for children's services Rachel Dickinson will be paid £123,231 and strategic director for city developments and neighbourhoods Frank Jordan will be paid £114,735.

City Mayor Sir Peter Soulsby is paid £66,943 and his deputy Rory Palmer is paid £50,508

The published salaries of the council's divisional directors.

Kamal Adatia, city solicitor - £85,575

Ruth Lake, director of adult social care and safeguarding - £85,575

Tracy Rees, director of care services and commissioning - £85,575

Andy Smith, director of children's social care and safeguarding - £82,626

Elizabeth Blyth, director of culture and neighbourhood services - £82,626

Miranda Cannon, director of delivery, communications and political governance - £99,150

Sarah Harrison, city centre director - £68,853

Adrian Russell, director of environmental and enforcement services - £85,575

Alison Greenhill, finance director- £79,674

Ann Branson, housing director - £85,575

Jill Craig, director of information and customer access - £85,575

Margaret Liberi, director of learning services - £88,527

Andrew Smith, director of planning transportation and economic development - £88,527

Trevor Pringle, director of young people's services - £85,575


Don't know if they're going to publish the rest of the 459 town hall staff members earning more than £50,000.”

“No Rachel..we need more paying jobs. Im not talking about the agency drivel either, what a load of nonsense those jobs are. My partner took on agency when we first moved here. Every job he phoned turned out to be with an 'agency'...total rubbish im afraid, insecure jobs with minimal pay ;/”

“I think that was what Rachel meant mam35 agencies do pay money, what agency doesn't pay money?”

“There are loads of jobs out there I have never seen an empty job site yet...”

“by mam35

Saturday, March 16 2013, 1:44PM
.
"No Rachel..we need more paying jobs. Im not talking about the agency drivel either, what a load of nonsense those jobs are.

I think i said that? more people working means more money for all x”

“Mam35. Glad you're becoming chronically aware of the great disparity between the public and private sector, but you need a devalued and expendable workforce to pay for all those fancy positions I listed above and everyone else's sense of entitlement. The best things in life may be free, but someone else is always paying for them.

Imagine if you only manage to get 20 weeks of work in the year through an agency then still be expected to pay full council tax. You'll have to spend the other 32 weeks haggling with the council tax office to try and get some benefit back – then be told it can only be backdated a number of weeks. These bureaucratic systems are behind the times and too far removed from the plight of ordinary people.

You may have a got a letter from our glorious mayor recently where he claims that there had to be a rise in council tax (even for those on very low income) to pay for so called 'essential services'. Do 459 town hall staff on more than £50,000 + pension + perks really constitute to 'essential services'?”

“Leicester City Council seems to pay their staff very well indeed. Shame the rest of Leicester's hard working people are on poor wages, this does not seem right or fair at all.”

“You are quite right there City_C10. Most of Leicester is on JSA and the powers that be are happy on their £50,000+ a year role. Who are the winners and losers...”

“umm yeah that is so true as well martin :( x”

“Up until recently, a middle-class 'professional' would typically leave university at about 25 (tax-payer funded) after a gap year and walk into an easy public service job. Many of them retiring at 55 with gold plated pensions. These people really knew how to play the system and grabbed every advantage you could imagine. A working life of just 30 years without ever putting a penny back into the system, compared to the 50 year's service of the typical blue collar working in production who ends up with a measly state pension and dies early.

If you look to politics, finance and public services, all you see is failure, incompetence and deceit being massively rewarded. Ordinary people know this and our youth are expected to spend their whole lives paying off this huge debt incurred by others.

In Leicester, where if you are lucky enough to find employment it is likely to be temporary and low paid, yet council tax has gone up and council tax benefit has been reduced. A more realistic pay grading structure for all council workers would be: £12,000 p.a. for standard operatives, £18,000 p.a. for team leaders and £24,000 p.a. for heads and managers. No pension, no expenses claims or using work's time for union activities. 5 year time limit for every worker in office to avoid stagnancy and corrupt practises. You would save loads of money.

But when bureaucrats lose funding, their tactic is to cut visible front-line services, the few things that are actually beneficial to the public and the vulnerable. They force people to complain and provoke civil unrest. It is a way of protecting the layers of invisible bureaucrats and shifting blame towards the Government. Their priority should be reducing the tax and the council tax burden for hard pressed workers, not giving themselves nice titles and positions.”

“interesting point.

what about a Maths, Economics and Business Graduate,
who walks out of university, wastes no time with a gap year, bites off more than they can chew in the Financial sector, rigs key interest and lending rates, gets found out, their company receives a fine - whilst they go unpunished and only gets a reduced share of their 200 million bonus pot. Not even worrying about a pension.

Blue Collar workers are one thing, but they need to work for someone, even if it's themselves.

You are right that there isn't parity between state and council expenses at the base level, whilst those above the sediment seem relatively unaffected. Cutting Services would be more acceptable if they did it without increasing budgets - but they don't seem to be able to economise without increasing costs to the tax payer. Which is proof that think tanks and private consultancies don't work for every pound they save - they charge you 1.25 in admin.

Private sector and public need to work together to reduce administration and unnecessary overheads as more workers earning more, means more tax going in, and less waste means more left for the important stuff.”

“@AsfordbyFox: "what about a Maths, Economics and Business Graduate....."

We hear about them types all of the time through our culture of envy (including corporate welfare and bailouts) – I aim to provided an often overlooked viewpoint. Regardless of this, my term 'middle-class professional' was aimed to cover both categories of leech and parasite. As you know, there are private sector infrastructure providers who make a killing out of state contracts – these firms are as much a part of the state as the public sector.

Anyway, I feel there is a marked difference between wasting customer's money and wasting public funds. The customer almost always has the option to take their business elsewhere, but the taxpayer has no options whatsoever as to who rips them off. They can vote for another type of tax-collector, but that's about it.

"Private sector and public need to work together to reduce administration and unnecessary overheads as more workers earning more, means more tax going in, and less waste means more left for the important stuff."

Would love to see things working in harmony too, but so many have tried and failed miserably. You would need extraordinary complex systems of regulation to run them and dictatorial powers to enforce them. Even the Scandinavian countries have their faults and there is a sense of creeping totalitarianism in the air. The only way forward I see, is personal autonomy, as the individual is the best judge of the many personal decisions and interactions we make everyday. Not some bureaucrat or control freak who knows what's best for us. It's the only way people can improve.

There are other ways to achieve reforms without being an authoritarian bully.”

“Agencies pay only minimum wage whilst taking a slice for themselves, the employer (the piggy in the middle) gets away with not having to worry about employees as they are in fact an employee of the agency and not of the company they work for....those are the most 'non-jobs' around...not worth the paper they are written on :/..It shouldnt be allowed. New laws were supposed to have been coming into being this year where any company could only use agency staff for 13-16 weeks at the most before employing them as part of the company...somehow I don't think that will come into being and it will continue in this area year in and out :/”

“But mam, agencies only exist because it's so hard to get rid of lousy staff once you employ them, especially in the public sector (look how hard it was to dislodge Ms Lock with her £174,000 salary and all the others claiming victimisation on fully paid leave while they waited investigation). If firms could hire and fire whom they pleased without legal repercussions, of course there would be casualties, but with the aim of protecting the status of a small minority, better quality staff are locked out of employment opportunities – and society suffers as a whole.

At the end of the day, a decent employer values reliable staff, if you are not valued in your workplace, then find another job where you are more valued. You win – they lose. This is how it works in a true free market situation.

The controlled markets which many people seem to favour are what is driving the West into greater debt and despair. Yet ironically, manual workers in the UK have always been at the mercy of market forces. They are made to sink or swim to provide others with security. I find this very immoral; market fluctuations should be shared, and felt, by everyone – not just by the productive. The majority shouldn't live off the backs of a minority.”

“I see the council cronies are back with their flagging campaigns. If they are so confident about the validity of their decisions, why do they attempt to control public opinion?”

“Oops, the above was meant for another post.”

“lol nick

Ummm i just wish MPs were on low wages for a year i bet they would all act a lot different!!! x”

“Yes Rachel, a lot of them, including media people and academics at the universities, are out of touch with the plight of ordinary people and don't want to associate with them. :-(”