“¿I apologise for the "crass" remark earlier. Though I'm still not convinced on the "feel closer to god" point you've made, that remark was uncalled for given how little I really know about her life.¿

Keith, no apology is necessary as it is obviously something you feel strongly about. It is still worth reading more about Mother Theresa as she has clearly had an interesting albeit controversial life. Her publicly presented image is often at odds with her methodology and stated motives.



¿After some background reading, I understand better now some of the issues you've mentioned in regard to LCP. When I mentioned feeding, I was thinking of feeding tubes and IVs, but, I don't know how invasive or painful these are. I think any medicine, for any of us, is artificial since it is an intervention, but the crucial point you've made is, if the end result can only be forseen to be more "pain and suffering", then it may not be worth it - something that needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. There's again, much I need to learn here.¿

It is a difficult and emotive subject, with many people perhaps doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. The LCP has attracted an awful lot of negative publicity due to oversimplified or grossly inaccurate reporting. The LCP is a robust but flexible methodology which was developed not just by expert care professionals in medicine, palliative care and pain relief but also sought & incorporated the views and advice of those experiencing end of life care.



"They would be fascinated to hear it and your underpinning research and evidence for such."
It is formally defined as "risk compensation".

I think we may have to agree to differ on this one but it¿s admittedly an interesting theory and I agree could be plausible in some cases.



Keith, your last post has demonstrated you clearly have an enquiring mind that is open to new information, even if it opposes your own initial viewpoint.

None of us are right all of the time or perfect but acceptance of our own fallibility is a true virtue.

The ability to seek, evaluate and sometimes accept alternatives views is a strength in itself, which you have clearly demonstrated that you have in abundance.

Few would have had the courage to come back and admit to revising their initial opinion, so for this you have my gratitude and respect.”

“I apologise for the "crass" remark earlier. Though I'm still not convinced on the "feel closer to god" point you've made, that remark was uncalled for given how little I really know about her life.

After some background reading, I understand better now some of the issues you've mentioned in regard to LCP. When I mentioned feeding, I was thinking of feeding tubes and IVs, but, I don't know how invasive or painful these are. I think any medicine, for any of us, is artificial since it is an intervention, but the crucial point you've made is, if the end result can only be forseen to be more "pain and suffering", then it may not be worth it - something that needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. There's again, much I need to learn here.

"They would be fascinated to hear it and your underpinning research and evidence for such."
It is formally defined as "risk compensation".

"Do you mean the methods which don¿t actually work, don¿t protect against disease and frequently result in unwanted pregnancy?"
No doubt, this is from listening to the news, reading books and articles.
For my part, I can't put aside the time to hunt down any statistical evidence for or against NFP.

I can no longer continue this conversion. As you have insinuated, I'm not educated enough on the various matters.”

“¿But none of what has been cited shows that she took 'the opportunity to "feel closer to god" at the expense of another human's suffering'. It shows that she was encouraging people to suffer so that they would feel closer to God.¿

Then perhaps you need to go read more about her yourself. I recommend Christopher Hitchens ¿The Missionary Position¿ if you can read it with an open mind. There are many more sources out there which support this, many of which from Mother Theresa¿s own words. ¿Encouraging people to suffer¿ is truly morbid &distasteful... You will note when Mother Theresa became unwell herself she did not choose a bed in one of her homes and rather chose a state of the art clinic in California.


¿To be dying, is still to be living, to still have life. How can one prolong one and not the other?¿

Dying is when the body begins the process of shutting down. We can extend this period artificially which simply extends the process of dying, the pain and the suffering that goes with it. Excessively extending the physical process and trauma of dying by artificial and invasive means is cruel, selfish and inhumane.


¿Why do fluids and food have to be forced?¿

When someone is dying, they frequently have no appetite and tend not to tuck into large dinners! Fluids and food have to then be administered, often in an invasive and distressing manner. This can inveriably increase pain and suffering. If someone is clearly in their last few moments, should they be force fed just to make you feel better?


¿Suffering can be alleviated with medication.¿

Not always, not all pain can be medicated away. For example, respiratory distress is called distress for a good reason as it is horrific to watch and even worse to experience.


¿Define "dying", please.¿

Please see above or use a dictionary...


¿On the contrary, because they are "less likely to conceive", more are convinced to take the risk, and so the cases increase.¿

I think you need to inform the World Health Organisation of your hypothesis. They would be fascinated to hear it and your underpinning research and evidence for such.


¿They can use natural family planning.¿

Could you tell me what you specifically natural means in this case? Do you mean the methods which don¿t actually work, don¿t protect against disease and frequently result in unwanted pregnancy?

¿Where have you gotten this figure?"

I¿ve ¿gotten¿ this figure from listening to the news, reading books and articles. Education, open mindedness and observation is liberating.


¿Do you support China's one-child policy?¿

No, it is totalitarian and unjust.

I do support the choice for people to have more control over when they have children without family policy or birth control advice being forced on them by an unqualified celibate however.”

“"You really need to do some more research..."
True, I didn't know all that. Thank you.
But none of what has been cited shows that she took 'the opportunity to "feel closer to god" at the expense of another human's suffering'. It shows that she was encouraging people to suffer so that they would feel closer to God.

"prolonging life where possible without prolonging dying"
To be dying, is still to be living, to still have life. How can one prolong one and not the other?

"it is often more painful and distressing to force fluids and food into their system than to allow the natural process of dying to continue."
Why do fluids and food have to be forced?
Thirst and starvation cause death through natural means. That doesn't mean we should not provide food and drink.

"about not increasing the amount of time suffering"
Suffering can be alleviated with medication.

"about not increasing the amount of time ... dying"
Define "dying", please.

"less likely to conceive therefore less likely to take any of the more extreme measures"
On the contrary, because they are "less likely to conceive", more are convinced to take the risk, and so the cases increase.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with sexual gratification. I should've said "only in sexual gratification", for those who use birth-control are opposed to one of the natural consequences of sex - life. Sexual intercourse is reduced to only sexual gratification. It is made selfish. It encourages the objectification of people.

Yes, some people have to wait to have children. They can use natural family planning. It is a matter of self-discipline that teaches a couple to respect each other. It fosters commitment and family life.

"Millions of children are born to those who cannot provide for them because they cannot afford birth control or have been told by ¿a celibate¿ not to use these methods."
Where have you gotten this figure?

Do you support China's one-child policy?”

“Re. Mother Teresa and to quote her (source http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/civilization/cc0029.html ).

"Mother Teresa had a favourite anecdote that starkly clarifies the difference between the two outlooks. "I never forget one day when I met a lady who was dying of cancer and I could see the way she was struggling with that terrible pain. And I said to her, I said, you know this is but the kiss of Jesus, a sign that you have come so close to Him on the cross that He can kiss you. And she joined her hands together and said, 'Mother Teresa, please tell Jesus to stop kissing me.' "

Undaunted, Mother Teresa continues. "This is the joy of suffering, the kiss of Jesus. Do not be afraid to share in that joy of suffering with Him because He will never give us more suffering than we are able to bear."

I just hope I never have someone with Mother Teresa's attitudes treating me. Presumably any pain is OK, since if we are still alive "we are able to bear it".”

“Keith
You kind of contradict yourself here so obviously can¿t see the irony in your own words...
In your opinion:
¿those who use birth-control are not interested in pregnancy but sexual gratification. So they are more liable to kill or abandon any children conceived.¿
Those who use birth control are less likely to conceive therefore less likely to take any of the more extreme measures to avoid becoming a parent. Some people wait to have children until they are able to meets those children¿s needs (i.e. financially solvent, emotionally settled, invested in a solid relationship)
There is also nothing wrong with sexual gratification. I suggest for your further reading you have a look at the Songs of Solomon (Song of Songs). It is a beautiful testimony of love and sexual fulfilment.

¿ those who don't use birth-control are open to life. So they accept a child with joy.¿
Not always so my friend. Millions of children are born to those who cannot provide for them because they cannot afford birth control or have been told by ¿a celibate¿ not to use these methods.
These are often the children born into situations where they are either not loved or adequately cared for. Many are abandoned or simply suffer a life where they are not wanted.”

“Keith


Mother Theresa was frequently criticised for the abysmally poor level of care in hers homes and for using the suffering of the poor and dying just to feel closer to god. In her own words ¿"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."¿
The care in her homes was almost universally criticised for the poor standards of hygiene, lack of proper medical care and lack of even the most basic of amenities. This includes informed and qualified sources such as the BMJ and the Lancet.

She received large donations but used the majority of the monies to build even more convents for recruiting rather than improving conditions for the poor and dying.

Mother Theresa received stolen funds from people like Charles Keating and the Duvaliers. She failed to respond to a legal request to return funds donated by Mr Keating to the tune of 1.25 million dollars despite writing a letter of support to the court where he was being tried.

The Liverpool Care Pathway that I described is not about allowing people to starve to death or refusing pain killing medication.

It is about prolonging life where possible without prolonging dying. Recognising when someone is in pain and close to death, it is often more painful and distressing to force fluids and food into their system than to allow the natural process of dying to continue.

It is not about speeding up death, it is about not increasing the amount of time suffering and dying.

You really need to do some more research...”

“"it can be inherently cruel to artificially prolong the life by forcing medication, fluids and food into the body."
It is cruel to deny these things for they are essential to live: deny medication - pain persists; deny fluids - dehydration; deny food - starvation. So you're saying that at the very end of life, a person should be allowed to die in pain or die of thirst or die of starvation?
By the way, Peter, Mother Theresa felt a separation from God right to her death. She did what she did because of her faith in God and because of her love for the poorest of the poor. How crass to suggest that she derived pleasure from the suffering or death of others!

I think it's better to have proper sex education than to encourage sexual experimentation.
I think that sex education needs to emphasise proper values. There is an endeavour in this regard called "values based sex education".
Peter, what is "sexual knowledge"? Human beings have been here for a long, long time, longer than organised scientific study. Haven't we accumulated any of this "useful sexual knowledge"?

"I would also suggest that the catholic church's anti-birth control teachings have been responsible for a huge number of abortions, child abandonment and infanticide amongst new borns. "
In my opinion:
- those who use birth-control are not interested in pregnancy but sexual gratification. So they are more liable to kill or abandon any children conceived.
- those who don't use birth-control are open to life. So they accept a child with joy.
This assumes that both are consenting and in the right frame of mind.
From this I conclude that your suggestion is untrue.

"sexual experimentation by the young ... is actually reduced by early sex education"
That's interesting, Andrew. Can you supply a source for the study that has shown this?”

“"A culture which advocates ... withdrawing food and fluids from the ill or elderly"

An obviously misunderstood and ill-informed reference to the "Liverpool Care Pathway". The LCP recognises that at the very end of life, when the body is slowly shutting down to die, it can be inherently cruel to artificially prolong the life by forcing medication, fluids and food into the body.

This often simply prolongs the suffering although although if you're someone like mother theresa, it does give the opportunity to "feel closer to god" at the expense of another human's suffering...

"A culture whose overly-explicit sex education for children inevitably promotes sexual experimentation by the young, and offers them the tragic remedy of abortion to eliminate the inconveniently-conceived child."

The same lack of sex education that allowed priests to take advantage of young children as they didn't know initially what was happening to them. The kids were not sufficiently well informed to know at first they were being sexually abused.

Sexual experimentation is essential, particularly in the absence of any useful sexual knowledge. As in scientific experiments, if you have some knowldge in the first place, there are less experiments required just to discover the basics.

I would also suggest that the catholic church's anti-birth control teachings have been responsible for a huge number of abortions, child abandonment and infanticide amongst new borns.

How dare Fr Pereira take such a sanctimonious stance in the full knowledge of what his church has been responsible for!”

“Andrew tell any child not to do something and they will but I do agree we need the education anyway. Hopefully it will one day reduce unwanted pregnancy and STD¿s

Is it not strange though that such an uproar can result from the popes¿ visit? Possibly louder than people condemning stoning and torture of many of our communities own relations back in there homelands.

Perhaps pub rules should stand never talk of politics or religion with a pint in your hand.”