“¿I apologise for the "crass" remark earlier. Though I'm still not convinced on the "feel closer to god" point you've made, that remark was uncalled for given how little I really know about her life.¿

Keith, no apology is necessary as it is obviously something you feel strongly about. It is still worth reading more about Mother Theresa as she has clearly had an interesting albeit controversial life. Her publicly presented image is often at odds with her methodology and stated motives.



¿After some background reading, I understand better now some of the issues you've mentioned in regard to LCP. When I mentioned feeding, I was thinking of feeding tubes and IVs, but, I don't know how invasive or painful these are. I think any medicine, for any of us, is artificial since it is an intervention, but the crucial point you've made is, if the end result can only be forseen to be more "pain and suffering", then it may not be worth it - something that needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. There's again, much I need to learn here.¿

It is a difficult and emotive subject, with many people perhaps doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. The LCP has attracted an awful lot of negative publicity due to oversimplified or grossly inaccurate reporting. The LCP is a robust but flexible methodology which was developed not just by expert care professionals in medicine, palliative care and pain relief but also sought & incorporated the views and advice of those experiencing end of life care.



"They would be fascinated to hear it and your underpinning research and evidence for such."
It is formally defined as "risk compensation".

I think we may have to agree to differ on this one but it¿s admittedly an interesting theory and I agree could be plausible in some cases.



Keith, your last post has demonstrated you clearly have an enquiring mind that is open to new information, even if it opposes your own initial viewpoint.

None of us are right all of the time or perfect but acceptance of our own fallibility is a true virtue.

The ability to seek, evaluate and sometimes accept alternatives views is a strength in itself, which you have clearly demonstrated that you have in abundance.

Few would have had the courage to come back and admit to revising their initial opinion, so for this you have my gratitude and respect.”

“I apologise for the "crass" remark earlier. Though I'm still not convinced on the "feel closer to god" point you've made, that remark was uncalled for given how little I really know about her life.

After some background reading, I understand better now some of the issues you've mentioned in regard to LCP. When I mentioned feeding, I was thinking of feeding tubes and IVs, but, I don't know how invasive or painful these are. I think any medicine, for any of us, is artificial since it is an intervention, but the crucial point you've made is, if the end result can only be forseen to be more "pain and suffering", then it may not be worth it - something that needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. There's again, much I need to learn here.

"They would be fascinated to hear it and your underpinning research and evidence for such."
It is formally defined as "risk compensation".

"Do you mean the methods which don¿t actually work, don¿t protect against disease and frequently result in unwanted pregnancy?"
No doubt, this is from listening to the news, reading books and articles.
For my part, I can't put aside the time to hunt down any statistical evidence for or against NFP.

I can no longer continue this conversion. As you have insinuated, I'm not educated enough on the various matters.”

“¿But none of what has been cited shows that she took 'the opportunity to "feel closer to god" at the expense of another human's suffering'. It shows that she was encouraging people to suffer so that they would feel closer to God.¿

Then perhaps you need to go read more about her yourself. I recommend Christopher Hitchens ¿The Missionary Position¿ if you can read it with an open mind. There are many more sources out there which support this, many of which from Mother Theresa¿s own words. ¿Encouraging people to suffer¿ is truly morbid &distasteful... You will note when Mother Theresa became unwell herself she did not choose a bed in one of her homes and rather chose a state of the art clinic in California.


¿To be dying, is still to be living, to still have life. How can one prolong one and not the other?¿

Dying is when the body begins the process of shutting down. We can extend this period artificially which simply extends the process of dying, the pain and the suffering that goes with it. Excessively extending the physical process and trauma of dying by artificial and invasive means is cruel, selfish and inhumane.


¿Why do fluids and food have to be forced?¿

When someone is dying, they frequently have no appetite and tend not to tuck into large dinners! Fluids and food have to then be administered, often in an invasive and distressing manner. This can inveriably increase pain and suffering. If someone is clearly in their last few moments, should they be force fed just to make you feel better?


¿Suffering can be alleviated with medication.¿

Not always, not all pain can be medicated away. For example, respiratory distress is called distress for a good reason as it is horrific to watch and even worse to experience.


¿Define "dying", please.¿

Please see above or use a dictionary...


¿On the contrary, because they are "less likely to conceive", more are convinced to take the risk, and so the cases increase.¿

I think you need to inform the World Health Organisation of your hypothesis. They would be fascinated to hear it and your underpinning research and evidence for such.


¿They can use natural family planning.¿

Could you tell me what you specifically natural means in this case? Do you mean the methods which don¿t actually work, don¿t protect against disease and frequently result in unwanted pregnancy?

¿Where have you gotten this figure?"

I¿ve ¿gotten¿ this figure from listening to the news, reading books and articles. Education, open mindedness and observation is liberating.


¿Do you support China's one-child policy?¿

No, it is totalitarian and unjust.

I do support the choice for people to have more control over when they have children without family policy or birth control advice being forced on them by an unqualified celibate however.”

“"You really need to do some more research..."
True, I didn't know all that. Thank you.
But none of what has been cited shows that she took 'the opportunity to "feel closer to god" at the expense of another human's suffering'. It shows that she was encouraging people to suffer so that they would feel closer to God.

"prolonging life where possible without prolonging dying"
To be dying, is still to be living, to still have life. How can one prolong one and not the other?

"it is often more painful and distressing to force fluids and food into their system than to allow the natural process of dying to continue."
Why do fluids and food have to be forced?
Thirst and starvation cause death through natural means. That doesn't mean we should not provide food and drink.

"about not increasing the amount of time suffering"
Suffering can be alleviated with medication.

"about not increasing the amount of time ... dying"
Define "dying", please.

"less likely to conceive therefore less likely to take any of the more extreme measures"
On the contrary, because they are "less likely to conceive", more are convinced to take the risk, and so the cases increase.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with sexual gratification. I should've said "only in sexual gratification", for those who use birth-control are opposed to one of the natural consequences of sex - life. Sexual intercourse is reduced to only sexual gratification. It is made selfish. It encourages the objectification of people.

Yes, some people have to wait to have children. They can use natural family planning. It is a matter of self-discipline that teaches a couple to respect each other. It fosters commitment and family life.

"Millions of children are born to those who cannot provide for them because they cannot afford birth control or have been told by ¿a celibate¿ not to use these methods."
Where have you gotten this figure?

Do you support China's one-child policy?”

“Re. Mother Teresa and to quote her (source http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/civilization/cc0029.html ).

"Mother Teresa had a favourite anecdote that starkly clarifies the difference between the two outlooks. "I never forget one day when I met a lady who was dying of cancer and I could see the way she was struggling with that terrible pain. And I said to her, I said, you know this is but the kiss of Jesus, a sign that you have come so close to Him on the cross that He can kiss you. And she joined her hands together and said, 'Mother Teresa, please tell Jesus to stop kissing me.' "

Undaunted, Mother Teresa continues. "This is the joy of suffering, the kiss of Jesus. Do not be afraid to share in that joy of suffering with Him because He will never give us more suffering than we are able to bear."

I just hope I never have someone with Mother Teresa's attitudes treating me. Presumably any pain is OK, since if we are still alive "we are able to bear it".”